Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 My particular concerns is data. If the categories of sex (ie M or F) become meaningless by the inclusion of biological men who *feel* like women, we will fail to get an accurate picture of data regarding crime, health etc. The ONS only recently was considering not gathering data on sex. My personal view is that trans people should be treated with compassion and understanding and their rights should be enhanced. That's a no-brainer. But I'm afraid I have every sympathy with my female friends who say they don't identify as women, they *are* women. My friends can't identify out of the gender pay gap or any of the other issues women face as distinct sex class. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutorse22 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 @rahrahrah@edcamPlease have a look here:http://randomstabbing.tumblr.com/post/144989720467/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-listandhttp://womanmeanssomething.com/1034-2/The study, available at www.womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy, shows that voyeurism-related offenses increased significantly after the publication of Target?s policy?doubling or tripling according to all measures, while other sexual offense categories changed little. The findings are consistent with the ?sex-predator? theory which has posited that sexual offenders may use gender-identity policies in private spaces to gain access to women and children in order to perpetrate sexual violence. This study is the first longitudinal analysis of risks related to gender-inclusion policies. The incident database is open-source and is available for further exploration and analysis. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 . Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 As I understand it there is going to be a consultation on any proposed changes. No one is being frozen out of the discussions or having their voices silenced - they are being invited to contribute to a debate. Also, whilst the detail is as yet undecided - no one is talking about individuals saying "I'm a woman" and then being able to enter women only spaces. What is being proposed is that the process of applying to legally change one's sex on official documents, will be less invasive than it currently is.It will still be a big decision to live as a different sex than the one you were born to. I do not believe that many people will go to the lengths of legally changing their sex - choosing to live as a woman, just to gain access to female spaces for malign purposes. I am sure there are easier ways to do this, if you are a determined predator. That's not to say that it's impossible of course, but unlikely.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-action-to-promote-lgbt-equality Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 The petition calls "for women to be consulted", in response to a proposed consultation exercise. Is the intention that the consultation should be limited to just women, as opposed to the broad consultation (which includes women), as is currently proposed? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwearyGodmother Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 A consultation has happened from which women were excluded, and at present the government are stalling on further consultation. This isn?t just about the changes to the GRA and Equality Act, it?s about the effect of service providers implementing self ID policies without applying any common sense. I am clearly a woman and when I stated that I identify as a man I was allowed access to the men?s changing room and swim. The implication is that any man could do the same. He wouldn?t have to legally change his sex, just tell a receptionist that he?s a woman. We?ve all been cowed into silence by the screams of ?transphobe, bigot? so I wouldn?t expect a receptionist to risk being abused by refusing someone access to a changing room, nor would I expect them to feel able to go against official policy. Now what kind of man would lie to get to watch women undressing? I mean, we?ve never heard of or experienced anyone do this ever. And they can do it in plain sight now. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 The effect of service providers implementing self ID policies without applying any common sense is a quite different one. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 My understanding is that a consultation is to take place at some point in the future. Why do you believe that women will be excluded from any public consultation out of interest? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 rahrahrah Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------No one is> being frozen out of the discussions or having> their voices silenced That's not quite right. When the current govt consulted with stakeholders on possible changes to the Gender Recognition Act, no women's groups were consulted. A serious omission in my view. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 You missed my point I object to women being the only ones deemed relevant on the petition, and that men are excluded If the transgendered community has been consulted to the exclusion of all others, then the petition should call for an open consultation I believe in transgendered rights, I also believe in women?s rights, but not to the exclusion of men?s rightsYou say ?We?ve all been cowed into silence by the screams of ?transphobe, bigot? isn?t it time that we put aside hypocrisy Transphobic or mysogynist? To me this signifies a rise in misandryBy the way, in case of doubt, I?m female Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Curmudgeon Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> You missed my point > > I object to women being the only ones deemed> relevant on the petition, and that men are> excluded > > If the transgendered community has been consulted> to the exclusion of all others, then the petition> should call for an open consultation > > I believe in transgendered rights, I also believe> in women?s rights, but not to the exclusion of> men?s rights> > You say ?We?ve all been cowed into silence by the> screams of ?transphobe, bigot? isn?t it time that> we put aside hypocrisy > > Transphobic or mysogynist? To me this signifies a> rise in misandryLogically and in isolation you're right. In the real world, how many women are going to be self-identifying as men in order to get into men's changing rooms or similar? Will that put men in danger? The negative aspects of allowing people rights according to their own self-identification regarding gender are going to fall overwhelmingly - and I mean overwhelmingly in the sense of 99.9999999% - on women. It's not misandry, it's just not wasting time, money and effort on something that really won't affect men. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomskip Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 In a debate about women's rights why do we always have to remember the men? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 As I understand it a LGBT survey was launched, covering a wider range of issues. There will (at some point) be a full, public consultation when / if any firm proposals emerge regarding gender recognition specifically.As I?ve said already, the idea that lots of men will legally change their sex and chose to live as women in order to access female only spaces for nefarious purposes seems to me, far fetched. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 rahrahrah Wrote:------------------------------------------------------> > As I?ve said already, the idea that lots of men> will legally change their sex and chose to live as> women in order to access female only spaces for> nefarious purposes seems to me, far fetched.You're missing the point (as you've done already). Self-ID means there is no requirement to live "as" women. If you identify you can access spaces formerly reserved for women. > I see no evidence of any decisions having been> made and no evidence of people having their views> silenced.Again, women's groups were not consulted when the govt consulted on this issue. That is a problem as it is women's sex-based rights that will be lost. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 rahrahrah Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> As I?ve said already, the idea that lots of men> will legally change their sex and chose to live as> women in order to access female only spaces for> nefarious purposes seems to me, far fetched.I think you're absolutely right, there certainly won't be "lots" of men doing it - but some might. The reason the proposed gender identification laws are worrying is that anyone could simply change their gender - and change it back again - as they pleased, simply by ticking a form, without any evidence of genuine transgender leanings (that's very poorly expressed, can't think of a good phrase) or in any way living as a woman. One can well imagine transphobic people deciding to use the proposed system to make a point, in fact were one that way inclined it'd be a gift, surely? I don't have any answers to this conundrum, but the changes out for consultation, if accepted, seem to me to be opening a very dangerous can of worms. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 A more tangential point but another troubling aspect to all this is children being put under pressure to change genders. Supporters of transing children have some unlikely allies in the Christian right. Parents who cannot bear feminine or effeminate boys are happier to tell themselves (and their children) that they are actually another gender. Easier to have a girl who was "born in the wrong body" than a feminine boy. Latent or overt homophobia influences some of these choices and it's disturbing.Gender is a social construct. It's a straightjacket for boys and girls - *especially* if you don't conform. Instead of telling people there is a disconnect between their biological selves and their - what? brain? soul? feelings? - we should be saying it's fine to be feminine if you're male and fine to be masculine if your female. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Legal gender recognition has got nothing to do with access to gendered changing facilities, as evidenced by this stunt. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpipes Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 rahrahrah Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Legal gender recognition has got nothing to do> with access to gendered changing facilities, as> evidenced by this stunt.The stunt is about self-ID. Do keep up! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 That?s very patronising.I thought you were campaigning against possible changes to the gender recognition act which could make it easier for trans people to change their legal status. The suggestion seems to be that such a change will somehow make it easier for predatory men to enter changing rooms. Yet, you?ve shown that the two things aren?t actually linked at all.Or is it the policy of Dulwich Leisure centre that you?re actually protesting against?If I haven?t ?kept up?, maybe your arguments need to be more coherent? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 rendelharris Wrote:---------------------------------------------------------------------> The reason the proposed gender identification laws> are worrying is that anyone could simply change> their gender - and change it back again - as they> pleased, simply by ticking a form, without any> evidence of genuine transgender leaningsIf someone wants to access a female changing room, do you really think that applying to change their legal status, their passport, there driver?s licence, bank accounts etc etc, is the easiest way to do it? The stunt suggest it?s a total red herring and has nothing o do with legal status or changes to the GRA. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Let?s force someone living as a man to use the women?s changing room, because that?s their ?birth gender?. That?ll delight people. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartblock Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 http://cheerful.libsyn.com/episode-9-transgender-rights-are-human-rightsInteresting podcast. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 rahrahrah Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> If someone wants to access a female changing room,> do you really think that applying to change their> legal status, their passport, there driver?s> licence, bank accounts etc etc, is the easiest way> to do it? No of course not, but surely the point is that if/when this is accepted people will be able to say they're identifying as a particular gender and access spaces reserved for that gender without having to offer proof? If facilities like the leisure centre started asking to see a passport as proof of gender before allowing people to use the facilities that would start another avenue of protest, not to mention extreme embarrassment. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 That isn?t to do with gender recognition laws though. It?s about a leisure centre?s changing policy. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 heartblock Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> http://cheerful.libsyn.com/episode-9-transgender-r> ights-are-human-rights> > Interesting podcast.Listened to this in the way to work this morning. It?s a good episode and pretty enlightening. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/185965-fun-times-at-dulwich-leisure-centre-on-friday/page/2/#findComment-1230798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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