David Starkey - A profound cultural change ?

[MissNoodlesHats]

"The whites have become black. A particular sort of violent destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion and black and white boys and girls operate in this language together"

Its odd really? When the Student riots started some months back, or when most of the UK's young farmers, as part of the country wide alliance tried to storm parliament, they were not suddenly labelled as having been taken by some profound cultural change?

Why would David Starkey make these comments? Have they been fanned by the coalitions attempts through the media to ring fence these rioters as coming from a particular section of society, and therefore not representative of the wider voting public? This obviously suits the politicians and the sections of a press with a stake in the coalitions arguments.

Is Starkey just reacting to the stupidity of the way that some sections of the UK's press went about reporting on these riots on behalf of this coalition of fools.

[mockney piers]

Since when does the press do anything for the benefit of the government, so close AFN

[MissNoodlesHats]

Is that a serious comment or irony, obviously sections of the press have a stake in the direction that a government take and the government have a vested interest in trying to as much as possible control that message. 24 meetings in 12months between News International and the Coalition Government, how many under Labour too? Its blogs like these that allow for a free and open discussion on things like the comments David Starkey has made without fear of censorship or political gerrymandering.

I think Starkey's comments are bourne out of a reaction to the Sun's shop a yob campaign, campaigns designed to play on the fears of the electorate. Outside of that his comments are clearly racist or idiotic. "Close your eyes and David Lammy sounds like a white man " ! ....Er?

[Jeremy]

I'd say it's both racist and idiotic.

But I'm surprised anyone would draw a parallel with student protests and pro-hunt campaigners.

[Loz]

And yet some black commentators are positioning the riots as a black issue. Is that not just as racist?

[Ridgley]

I don?t think it is a black issue it a youth issue, as there were quite a few whites, and Asians that took part in the riots. I have seen over the years as 3rd generations of Blacks and Asians and the white populations have mixed and share there cultural differences there are a few White and Asians have adopted the West Indian style of speaking and some as gone as far as the American style rap look and culture.

I feel that is due to the diversity living in London the whole language has evolved with young people the cockney which was spoken by white and black seems to be dying out and this Street/ West Indian slangs have been adopted. It is not Jamaican patwa Jamaicans do not speak like that they don?t even know most of slangs that are spoken.

Can I also add that the Black culture has brought some richness in the English culture Modes in the sixties had a black twist to it Notting Hill Carnival West Indian food as an example.

[MissNoodlesHats]

Well it was not a parallel, people react for reasons , no one dismissed the student riots or the pro hunt, near storming of parliament, as acts without reasons. Are we really saying that these riots just sporadically broke out due to Blackberry messenger and Jamaican white patios and the yoofs need to be contemporary dillingers ?

[Loz]

I'm probably giving him more credit than he's due here (as he is almost certainly not very aware of Baron-Cohen's creation), but was Starkey trying to describe what a few years ago was known as a 'wigger' and was the kind of thing Ali G ripped the piss out of?

The David Lammy quote was embarrassing though. Toe curling, in fact.

[Undisputedtruth]

Loz Wrote:

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> And yet some black commentators are positioning

> the riots as a black issue. Is that not just as

> racist?

No, they're speaking through experience, and seems there are a number of parallel issues which needs deeper thought. Weirdly, there are right wing nutters who thinks the riots was about youngster getting their free pair of trainers.

You won't prevent future riots by disregarding the psychology of crowds

[Loz]

So hang on, UDT - a white person saying the riots was a black issue is racist, but a black person saying the riots was a black issue is "speaking through experience".

Double standard?

Both Starkey and Joseph Harker were talking out their butt, IMHO. (And not the first time for either of them.) And I think there were a significant number of rioters (especially on night 2) that were out there getting their free pair of trainers (tv, mobile phone, etc). But that needs to be separated from the original riot in Tottenham, where there needs to be some investigation into cause.

[mockney piers]

Private Eye pointed out that in March in tottenham there was a riot of 200 youths who damaged police vehicles and the police, outnumbered, left them to it.

Thanks to the Earthquake/tsuanmi/nuclear crisis in Japan it didn't even make the Evening Standard, apparently Britain wasn't in crisis and JJB Sports' shareholders had nothing to worry about.

[katie1997]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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Weirdly, there are right wing

> nutters who thinks the riots was about youngster

> getting their free pair of trainers.

UDT - I think you'll find that view isn't one that is exclusively held by 'right-wing nutters'.

[LadyDeliah]

It's a class issue, but dividing people up by race makes it easier for the elite to turn people against each other and stop them joining forces.

Divide and conquer!

[Huguenot]

Presumably UDT believes that teenagers exhorting their chums over social networks and BB messenger to come and join the riot 'and get free stuf' were actually referring to pamphlets and Socialist Worker badges.

As for an 'elite' conspiracy to divide and conquer - presumably that's being enacted by the 'New World Order' yes?

[Undisputedtruth]

Katie, you're absolutely right, I should have included the right wing thickies too!

@Loz,

So hang on, UDT - a white person saying the riots was a black issue is racist, but a black person saying the riots was a black issue is "speaking through experience".

There are complex issues surrounding the recent riots. I'm afraid the dumbing down of these complexities and subtleties doesn't really deserve an answer until the question has been put in context to who is saying what.

After viewing Starkey on Newsnight it become clear that he really was out of touch with today's young people. For a start Patois is broken French and have no origins in Jamaica whatsoever as the country have been occupied by the British and the Spanish.

[Jeremy]

Loz Wrote:

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> So hang on, UDT - a white person saying the riots

> was a black issue is racist, but a black person

> saying the riots was a black issue is "speaking

> through experience".

>

> Double standard?

I'm not sure. I don't see what's wrong with discussing links between race, poverty, and social unrest - and while I don't agree with everything Harker said, at least his intentions seem constructive.

[Jeremy]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> Patois is broken French and have no origins in Jamaica whatsoever as the

> country have been occupied by the British and the Spanish.

No that's not true at all. It's a generic term meaning regional/provincial/personal variations on a formal language.

[Undisputedtruth]

My Uncle speaks Patois so I know.

[Huguenot]

Sorry UDT, you're simply wrong - a patois is any non-stamdard language.

The etymology of the word is French

There is a Jamaican Patois

Mind you mate, I don't expect you to let facts get in the way of your assertions ;-)

[katie1997]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> Katie, you're absolutely right, I should have

> included the right wing thickies too!

And you're differentiating them from the nutters? I see.

Anyway, please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote, that's annoying in any serious discussion (not so in the lounge).

[david_carnell]

UDT - my Dad used to be a printer. I wouldn't know one end of a heidelberg press from another. Stop speaking nonsense.

[Undisputedtruth]

Both my parents are West Indians and have visited family in several of the Caribbean islands.

David, can I ask what are your personal experience of the West Indian dialect? The heidelberg press analogy is utter nonsense.

[Huguenot]

"Both my parents are West Indians and have visited family in several of the Caribbean islands."

So that means that you can ignore the definition of patois, and deny the existence of Jamaican Patois?

I think what David was implying was that just because your parents did something, it doesn't make you an expert in it. In the case of the word patois you are simply wrong, which rather proves his point.

[MissNoodlesHats]

I think Starkey was 'trying' to paint a picture of a style, a look, an attitude and a way of talking, sections of UK youth has long since dispensed with Jamaican patios and moved on, making it their own. Dancehall is as old hat ballroom dancing and the socialist worker.

Point is though was it really the thought of grabbing some free Nike's ( that you could actually nick on any given day) that torpedoed Cameron's Tuscan knee's up?

I also doubt that they did it as a reaction to Nick Clegg's tenure in charge of the country, now that would have been bloody inspired irony!

Starkey just shows how hopelessly out of touch generations of people have become.

[Huguenot]

Possibly, or more likely you're insisting that these people are oppressed victims fighting for their rights because it suits your world outlook.

You deny that they were just shopping with a hammer instead of a wallet despite the airwaves hot with kids cheering about the 'free stuf' they was getting innit.

If you can completely ignore the evidence like this then it rather makes it pointless to discuss it.