Request for comment: Collapse of the U. S. A.

[New Nexus]

ibilly99 Wrote:

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> How about a poll thingy so we can can all Niall

> our flags to the mast -

> suggest the following;

>

>

> 1 Everything's fine and will come right in the

> end

> 2. Things are bad and could get worse but and we

> are currently in danger

> 3. We're all doomed we have hit the iceberg and

> it's time to get to those lifeboats

> 4. I'm a banker and always trade on the right side

> of any disaster

Nearly every one on here called me a Nutter, so to fit that profile, I am going to go for all 4

[LadyDeliah]

Sorry to burst your bubble dear Hugo, there are plenty og things to panic about.

I'd rather not know, to tell you the truth, as ignorance is bliss, but I do know and I can't now unknow, so I have to try to a)prepare myself and my family as best as possible to survive the massive changes coming and b)do my bit to try to fight for an ethical, non-violent transition, which includes raising awareness.

[New Nexus]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Sorry to burst your bubble dear Hugo, there are

> plenty og things to panic about.

>

> I'd rather not know, to tell you the truth, as

> ignorance is bliss, but I do know and I can't now

> unknow, so I have to try to a)prepare myself and

> my family as best as possible to survive the

> massive changes coming and b)do my bit to try to

> fight for an ethical, non-violent transition,

> which includes raising awareness.

I do hope you looked at the youtube I put up Re: Nicole Foss,

She has similar views

[ibilly99]

irony dear boy Hugenot irony - a instant metaphor for a post-modernist audience - you don't work for Goldman Sachs by any chance ?

[New Nexus]

ibilly99 Wrote:

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> irony dear boy Hugenot irony - a instant metaphor

> for a post-modernist audience - you don't work for

> Goldman Sachs by any chance ?

First bank of denial - UK division

[Huguenot]

LD, I think you're confusing wanting something to happen with it actually happening.

All you're likely to see is a long and rather dull climb down for the UK from its currrent economic pedestal. It'll be driven, sensibly, by QE and inflation weakening the pound and increasing the price of imports.

In turn this is likely to increase the amount of UK land given over to agricultural use, and a greater 'fashion' for seasonal produce.

UK energy production will gently sway towards nuclear and renewables. The UK will continue to develop its service driven economy.

No worries, no great hassle.

Conversely, your vision lies in chaos, either because you feel that the destruction of society will give you a second chance to aim for personal goals you currently feel are out of reach, or because if you can't reap the benefits of organised society you don't want anyone else to have them either ;-)

[New Nexus]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> LD, I think you're confusing wanting something to

> happen with it actually happening.

>

> All you're likely to see is a long and rather dull

> climb down for the UK from its currrent economic

> pedestal. It'll be driven, sensibly, by QE and

> inflation weakening the pound and increasing the

> price of imports.

>

> In turn this is likely to increase the amount of

> UK land given over to agricultural use, and a

> greater 'fashion' for seasonal produce.

>

> UK energy production will gently sway towards

> nuclear and renewables. The UK will continue to

> develop its service driven economy.

>

> No worries, no great hassle.

>

> Conversely, your vision lies in chaos, either

> because you feel that the destruction of society

> will give you a second chance to aim for personal

> goals you currently feel are out of reach, or

> because if you can't reap the benefits of

> organised society you don't want anyone else to

> have them either ;-)

OMG

The guy has finally lost it.

He thinks QE is a good thing.

He thinks inflation is a good thing.

He thinks the decimated UK farming industry is going to come back.

And when are going to build nuclear power station before or after the light go out.

[ibilly99]

I certainly don't want chaos and disorder I personally witnessed the looting of the Tescos in Grove Vale and it was a disquieting experience and one that I wanted to get as far away as possible. We've had some great years I'm 50 and have had a good ride beginningg with free university education and a fairly effortless career path that has taken me around the world. I like stability and a society that functions equitably particuarly in this phase of my life - mob rule is horrific and pretty much what we have unleashed in Libya presently.

What I fear - and it is based on a fairly rational analysis based on a lot of different inputs and a regard to history is we are beggining a slide into a world where the government will retreat from being the relatively benign keeper of the democratic gate to something more remote and authoritarian as society becomes poorer.

We've just had the biggest bust in history and now comes the reckoning and it was a fairly small group of financiers in league with compliant politicians who unleashed this. Most people want a stable and fulfilled life joe public wasn't the orchestrator of this as Hugenot seems to imply. Petty rioters that nicked few quid are now being banged up and rightly so but where's the perp walk for Chuck Prince, Dick Fuldman Fred Goodwin and the like - nowhere that's where.

From working with rich people - and I've worked with a lot - mostly alpha males - I have found they are generally greedy and tight in equal measure - always wanting to win whether it be a queue or the race of life - restless souls driven to achieve by an emptiness inside. They are the architects of this mess not the average generous soul.

And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: for all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

[New Nexus]

Did anyone see the picture and news from Belarus, when it had to devalue? If so, take that and the UK riots, times that by about a 1000.

Human nature is what human nature has always been.

[ibilly99]

Hugenot we may be on the same side but I find it hard to support your last assertion certainly not in the short term what it won't be certainly is the Japanese stoicism shown after the Tsunami which was a credit to their nation.

[Huguenot]

You know that inflation is a good thing, yes?

You're not actually labouring under the belief that inflation is a bad thing?

Why do you think governments have inflation targets? It's not to keep them down, it's to keep them at the right level - it's to keep the incentive to trade and hence keep the economy turning over.

Slightly raised inflation targets can do a great deal to address balance of trade issues - particularly accelerated labour demands.

Why do you think the UK kept out of the Euro? It was to retain the freedom to devalue the pound.

You seriously know nothing about economics at all do you?

And as for the fact that you're scared of the government turning all jackboots... oh good grief. Sky falling on your head etc.?

[Huguenot]

NN - the pound has already devalued - it dropped by a third over a period of three months only a couple of years ago.

We didn't have Belarus did we? Don't try and claim that the recent riots had anything to do with international currency exchange rates from 2 years ago will you?

Daft.

[LadyDeliah]

My life would actually be better if there was no economic collapse and ecological crises, because I'm not doing too badly, thank you! But if I am able to reach my goals whilst more and more people are unable to reach theirs, I would not feel happy in my privileged position.

I think the situation will actually be far worse than many people realise, just from the austerity measures that are being introduced. So even if I was happy living a life of privilege while others are suffering, I don't think I'd be immune from the backlash of their feelings of injustice. So it's in my own interests and those of my family, that I fight to try to change things.

I do however think that we are seeing the death throws of a bloated capitalist system which has come to the end of the road in it's exploitation of the people and planet to feed it's greedy elite, but that's another story and that part may be the wishful thinking you accuse me of. I do not wish for chaos, however, I hope that there will be an orderly transition from our current system to one that is more sharing of assets on a commons basis and power/decision making is localised.

I think the private property model cannot be sustained with rising population growth and diminishing natural resources, so in the future, in order to continue to survive as a species, humans will have to learn to co-operate and share in a more ethical and egalitarian way.

So, no it's not about me getting a leg up. I could have done that easily in the current system, but was never interested in material gain. The only reason I studied law, is because it is holds the key to a system I wish to understand and help to change. I want to defend the voiceless and learn how to fight the big guys from within the system.

Whether I'll ever manage to effect change or not, doesn't stop me wanting to try, because things need to change. The system as it is cannot be sustained. We live comfortably in the UK because other people live in abject poverty. The Western Capitalist system is propped up by exploitation of people and the planet on a massive scale, but something has to give.

Many governments around the world who allow Western corporations to exploit their natural resources and labour are very unpopular with their people, but are kept in power through US financial and military intervention. The US imperial machine is over-expanded and creaking at the seams. When the US economy goes tits up, which I expect it will do in the very near future, the support they give to tinpot dictators all over the world will dissolve and so will a lot of our cheap goods, not to mention our pensions, investments etc.

It's a house of cards and the UK economy is so tied into the US economy, that it is bound to affect our economy. We do not produce anything in this country, the majority of our food is imported. We are dependent on other countries for the majority of our energy supplies.

I am worried that we will see food riots and people starving on the streets of Britain, if we do not get our shit together and begin to work on sustainable ways of running our country. Not a top down, elite deciding what's good for us kind of way of running things, but a way of running things that empowers people to organise and co-operate on a local level to make sure enough food is produced to prevent starvation and people who need somewhere to live are housed and energy can be produced by everyone having solar panels or wind turbines etc.

These are a few solutions, but they are anti-corporation and can't produce any kind of sustained profit for anyone, so have not been allowed to be developed. The corporations and other elite who get the politicians to run the country to benefit them, will not give up power voluntarily and anyone who opts to live outside of their consumerist treadmill of a system is marginalised, but we have no choice. We cannot let them continue to exploit the people of this world or the planet.

I don't have all the answers, no-one does, but it's obvious what the problems are and I think the more people who wake up to the enormity of the problems we face, the quicker something can be done about it.

[Huguenot]

LD if you want to exploit resources you need to put in place the infrastucture to do so.

Since this requires an investment before the returns can be realised, whatever happens you're talking about a loan of some kind. A loan must have a both interest and regulation to be effective, otherwise they'd never be paid back.

Since barter doesn't work in two way exchanges (the bloke who has the oranges you want might not want your tomatoes, he might want a mobile phone) you always need a currency.

So unless you go all Pol Pot on us, you need banks. That's it.

Regarding community ownership of property, I'm simply surprised that someone of your experience is trying to talk sensibly about this being a realistic option.

You were pointing out yourself that the kids looting were disenfranchised from a personal stake in their society. People in communist societies don't think that they're part owners of the land - they think they own nothing. Communist societies disenfranchise the entire population.

[LadyDeliah]

So let's hear your solutions then Hugo.

And who mentioned communist societies?

I specifically stated that I think decision making/power should be local. Communist societies all had centralised power structures, where they replaced one elite for another.

[ibilly99]

LD +1 brilliant exposition can I join your party/

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

[Huguenot]

I've already stated them LD.

A nice gentle wind down of the UK pound through QE and managed inflation. Incentives for local agriculture and exports (a weakened pound will do it loads of favours).

I'd change the law to stifle nimbys on renewable energy, subsidise nuclear, emphasise public transport, offer tax breaks to small business.

I'd tax private cars to death, subsidise taxi firms and put infrastucture in place to support it (you can get a taxi to your door in 3 mins in most places in Singapore by SMS).

I'd be looking very closely at education, trying to emphsasis vocational qualifications and skills rather than rote learning (everyone can find Google these days, it's interpretation and execution that's needed).

I'm an absolute convert in the last few weeks to a Land Value Tax (thanks to Carnelli) so that would be in place.

And loads more... ;-)

[LadyDeliah]

I agree with everything you say except nuclear and QE, but I think we also need to look at decision making structures and decentralisation of power.

I think the Land Tax would go some way, but I'd actually go as far as advocating land reform and relaxing the planning laws in relation to eco-housing on green belts and in the countryside.

I'd also encourage facilitation of workers co-operatives if businesses go to the wall, instead of administration and laying everyone off.

ibilly, I used to be in the Green Party but am fairly disillusioned with party politics. Whoever you vote for, the same people are in power. I think the alternative is grass roots movements who work on doing things differently, such as all the church groups and other community leaders who met after the riots and are meeting again tomorrow.

I don't think we should look to government for solutions, they have none that will benefit ordinary people as they are all in hock to the corporations, so we need to get active and shape our own communities and help to empower the communities less able to organise themselves.

[ibilly99]

Lady Delilah you're bang on about Government I used to work closely with ministers and only the rich and powerful get to have face time with them always when they have some 'issue' which needs sorting. Radicals never get off the back benches and those that rise up have to toe the line - true leadership radicals don't last long al la Allende et al - this is a good place to start for the uninformed.

[Huguenot]

"I'd also encourage facilitation of workers co-operatives if businesses go to the wall, instead of administration and laying everyone off."

They already exist, they're called management buy-outs. The 'management' can be anyone they choose to be, not the existing managers. I've done two of them, and they both went to the 'workers'.

Since business needs organisation and role-specific activities, there'd be no point in investing in an organisation where no-one was willing to get organised, and people were just doing whatever they wanted ;-)

[Huguenot]

ibilly99 - yeah, whatever, or more likely as sensible people point out, it simply wouldn't have been worth all the effort of doing the things Perkins claims to have done.

Even Perkins said there was 'no consipracy' - so what's your point?

Just a load of tin foil headgear methinks...

[LadyDeliah]

Hugo, it's not very constructive to just attack people by inferring they are mental. You should make a counter argument if you disagree.

[Huguenot]

Ha ha, and you don't think I have? Come on LD, get off your high horse. I've worked harder than anyone to adddress these issues sensibly.

What I'm saying is that every point made has been ignored to the point of irrationality. It's conspiracy theories, not logic.

[LadyDeliah]

No, it's different points of view my dear!

[Huguenot]

No it's not. It's incorrect information, misused quotes, accusations, generalisations, hyperbole and deliberate misinterpretations masquerading as debate.