Whither the euro?

[Huguenot]

You're accusing me of 'lying' about the EU?

Oh good grief.

You had to invent your own words and attribute them to me (words that I didn't say or mean) in order to 'prove' me a liar. What I meant was that people's relationship with the EU hadn't changed, so grow up and stop accusing people of lying will you?

A photo of a lunatic burning an EU flag is no more representative of the Greek public than photos of the EDL are representative of the UK.

Your refusal to accept 32,000 people as a representative sample just makes you sound stupid, I'd drop it if I were you.

There is no President of the European Union - although some of the institutions like the Council or to Commission have presidents. So you should get a little education before making pronouncements.

You also sound daft claiming these roles are 'unelected'. You'll probably be surprised to learn that our own Prime Minister isn't elected either - he's appointed by his own party.

Finally, the governments in Italy and Greece were tumbled by their own people and their own representatives, not by Europe - so stop making vacuous claims.

The rest of what you say is so distorted and misrepresentational it doesn't real deserve a response.

The rubbish about the EU being the same as the Euro just makes you sound silly.

[Tarot]

I suppose if you have invested your main bussiness in Europe you would be feeling as sick as a parrot and wished you had not put your eggs in one basket

No doubt the plughole is in sight.

whom doth the bell toll for The Euro and all that entails. Ding dong.

[Huguenot]

Tarot, you witless buffoon, 49% of our exports are to Europe.

When you f*ck it up on that magnitude you don't say things like 'shouldn't have put your eggs in one basket'.

[silverfox]

Peter Brookes cartoon, The Times Saturday December 10

[Otta]

Do you think the Euro has been a good thing for Greece, Irealnd, Italy and Spain thus far?

I am really no expert in all of this, but I'm not sure it's fair to compare these countries, and the reason they've all ended up in the shit. I also don't think you can just blame the euro.

Too much making hay whilst the sun shined, and greed certainly did Ireland no favours.

[El Pibe]

In the documentary last night it was interesting to see a greek analyst say that Europe gave the greek money to modernise farming and industry in order to increase productivity and competitiveness, and they spent it on mercedes and nice apartments, then borrowed cheap money to buy more cars and do up the nice apartments, and now that it's all gone tits up they're completely in the shit because they've actually gone backwards over the last 30 years.

THe Euro has its faults for sure but I agree with otta (what otta said?) that the main reason the pigs are suffering is greed and short-sightedness, not fundamental structuring issues with the single currency.

Not Britain's problem any more I guess is it ;)

[Magpie]

A single currency can only work if there is both a single monetary and single fiscal policy. The Euro only had a common monetary policy. There was attempted convergence of fiscal policy (eg 3% budget deficits etc), but this did not remove the significant structural differences across the Euro area in terms of wage rates, competitiveness, productivity etc. What it needed was significant and continiuing fiscal tranfers between regions, and a common fiscal policy - these were not in place, and hence the experiment was structurally flawed from the start. Unless the Germans allow the ECB to intervene and act as the lender of last resort, and agree to bail out the PIIGs through fiscal transfers, then the EURO will fail. Its that simple. Britain was right to stay out, and was right to veto the "ignore the elephant in the room" deal agreed last week.

[????]

...Indeed and evidence of that elephant in one of the countries that's meant to be a key driver of the new "Europe", from BBC:

Meanwhile, French presidential candidate Francois Hollande has said that he would seek to renegotiate the deal on the euro agreed last week.

Mr Hollande, who is the Socialist Party's challenger to President Nicolas Sarkozy at next year's elections, said the agreement was not the right solution for the European Union.

Francois Hollande is the Socialist Party's candidate for next year's elections He said he wanted greater powers for the European Central Bank (ECB) and for member states to issue joint eurobonds.

Germany is opposed to such measures.

Speaking to RTL radio, Mr Hollande said: "This accord is not the right answer, nor does it have the urgency.

"If I am elected president, I will negotiate, renegotiate this deal to include what is missing today."

Members of Mr Hollande's party have accused President Sarkozy of bowing to German pressure on the issues of the ECB's power and eurobonds.

France is holding its presidential election in two rounds of voting on 22 April and 6 May. President Sarkozy has yet to declare his candidacy but is widely expected to stand.

Polling organisations currently predict that Mr Hollande would beat Mr Sarkozy in the second round of voting.

I'm not sure what's going to overwhelm it first economics or politics.....

[Huguenot]

It's just bluster from Hollande, he's presenting vary little change over the currrent solution safe that his bluff will never be called.

The Germans haven't said there can't be a Eurobond, they said that you need accountability before you can issue them - otherwise the peripheral nations continue to spend money they don't have without accountability.

Hollande's saying they could have been issued at the same time as the new accountability legislation.

By the time he achieves power (asssuming he does), he'd be able to call for Eurobonds because the financial agreements will be in place. So could (and probably will) Sarkozy.

[Jeremy]

What exactly would "accountability" entail in this situation?

[Huguenot]

So far as I understand it's several items:

A deposit in escrow that is 'fined' if a country exceeds the 3% of GDP deficit limit.

A constitutional amendment by nation to balance budgets

EU High Court to confirm compliance

The Euro supporting currently include the following (but no Eurobond):

?500 billion ($669 million) European Stability Mechanism bailout fund into action in 2012

?200 billion to the International Monetary Fund's general account

The language on creditor losses would be moved to a preamble to the legal text setting out the rules to avoid scaring off potential lenders to wobbly countries

[acm]

Or, in the real world.

"There is not much more than a blank sheet of paper and even the name of the future treaty might still change" - Petr Necas, the prime minister of the Czech Republic.

There was no summit, there was no treaty, deals or agreements and there certainly was no "veto".

It was a meeting. That's all. No new "Lisbon Treaty" was ever on the table. But in the best spirits of the EU - smoke, mirrors, fraud and bullshit will reign. Not only was this very far from being a finished treaty, Van Rumparse only proposed a Council meeting in March to give a mandate for limited treaty change, followed by an Intergovernmental Conference to draft the amendments. This is clear proof that a treaty cannot have existed last week.

And when questioned directly, our glorious leader professes thus -:

"As I said in my statement, the eurozone members wanted to create a new treaty within the EU, which has all sorts of dangers. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the letter that Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy sent, he will see that they specifically wanted the 17 to look at issues such as financial services and the market within that treaty. Without safeguards, a treaty within a treaty would have been far more dangerous than a treaty outside the EU."

So, again. To be absolutely clear.

There was no summit, there was no treaty, deals or agreements and there certainly was no "veto".

*Edit to say*

Our own Prime Minister lies to - sorry, misleads, the country. Again. His Civil Service must know this, and therefore this must be a willful act.

"45 minutes from attack" - so say Tony Blair in Parliament, and thus screams the press. Whilst neglecting to add it was third hand suspect intelligence, overheard by a taxi driver. And only regarded battlefield weapons - not a direct threat to the UK.

It begs the question as to why they need to lie.

[Tarot]

Hugnot the whole things crumbling its been forty years to reach this point and its all gone t+ts up.

Theres no need to be ranting at me I never done it

The best laid plans of mice and men and all that.

Theres a new future and its not Europe.

[Huguenot]

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell us what this new future actually is then?

[katie1997]

Its plain, bland food. You know, without chillies and stuff.

Life will be like it used to be in the 1940s and 1950s when no-one had any money. No cars, less travel and definitely no foreign food.

Plain food* is the future, not Europe.

Edited to add: *but there won't be much to go round.

[DaveR]

"the powerhouses of Europe are creating a superpower on our doorstep"

recognise the quote?

So, H, with the benefit of a few days calm analysis and an opportunity to see what the wider world thinks of the summit and the 'agreement', would you still describe this in the same terms?

[silverfox]

French bank chief urges Britain credit downgrade

France stoked cross-Channel tensions today when its central bank chief suggested Britain should suffer a credit downgrade. As yet another EU summit was called for early next year, amid fears that the freshly drawn up fiscal compact could unravel, Christian Noyer, governor of the Banque de France, said ratings agencies should target London ahead of Paris. Britain had more debt and higher inflation and bank lending was ?collapsing?, said Mr Noyer. His comments come after President Sarkozy branded David Cameron an ?obstinate kid? for his stance at last week?s Brussels summit, reflecting continuing bad blood between the capitals over the ailing eurozone...

(The Times)

Cue 'Hoppit you frogs' and 'Up yours Noyer' headlines in tomorrow's Sun

[the-e-dealer]

With Friends like these .....

[silverfox]

Maybe the Leveson inquiry is taming The Sun.

The first edition has gone with 'Noyer the Annoyer'

[Huguenot]

No change here DaveR, right up close you don't seem able to see Le Foret for the trees.

Give yourself a little tweak: instead of criticising their shoes, why don't you consider where everyone else is walking to?

[DaveR]

H, I asked the question to give you a chance to retreat to a more rational place rather than maintain your current level of delusion, but obviously it's up to you. Way, way back on this thread (I can't be bothered to look it up) I said that literally no-one agrees with you on this - not just on this forum, but in the world - and that should give you pause for thought. That's more true now than it was then. There's no point in 'debating' this with you - it's like trying to explain calculus to a teapot.

[Tarot]

KHugnotatie are you Seans wife?

Hugnot,The trouble with Europe is it is all signpost and no destination.

A circle of debt.

There are other continents you know like Asia where you are.

[Huguenot]

DaveR, you claim that 'literally' no-one agrees with me in the world, and then suggest that I should retreat to a more rational place?

Ha ha.

I suspect that you ascribe thoughts and beliefs to me that I don't have, and project attitudes onto others that they don't share.

Notably, the attempt to gather 'forces' around you that share your opinion is simply to engage in rhetorical bullying. I really don't care how big your 'gang' is, regardless of whether they exist solely in your own imagination.

Just to show us what an insightful little devil you are, why don't you list my delusions (feel free to quote me) and then provide evidence that 'literally' no- one agrees with me in the world? My guess is that actually you'll make a lot of claims about what I believe in that simply aren't true.

I will consequently expect you to provide data to back up any claims, instead of just your blah blah blah opinion.

No? Don't fancy that? I thought not.

[Carter]

"the powerhouses of Europe are creating a superpower on our doorstep"

This quote from Huguenot is actually rather telling and he is correct.

Let us consider the European Stability Mechanism, or ESM. A permanent rescue funding programme to succeed the temporary ESTF. The ESM is due to be launched as soon as Eurozone Member States have ratified it, due July 2012. Here are some rather frightening pieces of the draft legislation.

Article 8: Authorised capital stock

1. The authorised capital stock shall be EUR seven hundred billion (700,000,000,000)

Why that number? Where did it come from? How was it calculated?

Article 9: Capital Calls

3. ...ESM Members hereby irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay on demand any capital call made on them (...) within seven (7) days of receipt of such demand.

Does this mean that all future Governments, even if they do not want to, must pay any demands made to it?

Article 10: Changes in authorised capital stock

1. (The Board of Governors) may decide to change the authorised capital and amend Article 8 (...) accordingly.

So EUR 700,000,000,000 is just the start, and the ESM can suck money in to it when it damn well likes? And we must irrevocably and unconditionally pay up?

Article 27: Legal status, privileges and immunities

2. The ESM (..) shall have full legal capacity (...) to institute legal proceedings

3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets (...) shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process

(...)

So the ESM can sue anyone it likes, but we cannot challenge it in court?

4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall (...) be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.

So no Government, law or elected will of the people can touch the ESM? The Mafia must be sooooo jealous.

Article 30: Immunities of Persons

1. Governors, alternate Governors, Director, alternate Directors, the Managing Director and staff members shall be immune from legal process with respect to acts performed by them (...) and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents.

So all staff are untouchable. Does the inviolability of documents mean we cannot even see what is written?

So this is a single unelected organisation that is untouchable by any law or Government, has no independent reviewers and is immune from all forms of prosecution that into which the Eurozone is forced to transfer unlimited assets within 7 days on order?

What could possibly go wrong?

Of course, me highlighting this means that I am a xenophobic, racist little Englander without any concerns for our friends across the channel, and Huguenot is right to insist that we must sign up to the Eurozone. Immediately.

*Edit to say*

Fitch's say that a comprehensive solution was now "technically and politically beyond reach".

Clegg says that critics not to exploit the Eurozone crisis to foster "xenophobia, chauvinism and polarisation".

You see, Huguey, if people are called xenophobic enough times for expressing such concerns, then eventually people won't really give a fuck about such labels.

[Huguenot]

"Huguenot is right to insist that we must sign up to the Eurozone. Immediately."

You see that's exactly what I mean.

I have not suggested that.

So what you, what DaveR, what Quids do is make things up and then claim that I've said them.

The things is, because you cannot be honest about that, there is no reason to believe you're being honest about anything else.

So what you have done there is cherry picked legal items from a document you haven't read and positioned them dishonestly out of context.

The legislation is designed to protect the integrity of the fund from misappropriation, the opposite of what you claim.

Most likely it's just a copy and paste job anyway.

Hence beacuse you tell lies about why you're anti-European, QED you are prejudiced.