Jump to content

Recommended Posts

You're accusing me of 'lying' about the EU?


Oh good grief.


You had to invent your own words and attribute them to me (words that I didn't say or mean) in order to 'prove' me a liar. What I meant was that people's relationship with the EU hadn't changed, so grow up and stop accusing people of lying will you?


A photo of a lunatic burning an EU flag is no more representative of the Greek public than photos of the EDL are representative of the UK.


Your refusal to accept 32,000 people as a representative sample just makes you sound stupid, I'd drop it if I were you.


There is no President of the European Union - although some of the institutions like the Council or to Commission have presidents. So you should get a little education before making pronouncements.


You also sound daft claiming these roles are 'unelected'. You'll probably be surprised to learn that our own Prime Minister isn't elected either - he's appointed by his own party.


Finally, the governments in Italy and Greece were tumbled by their own people and their own representatives, not by Europe - so stop making vacuous claims.


The rest of what you say is so distorted and misrepresentational it doesn't real deserve a response.


The rubbish about the EU being the same as the Euro just makes you sound silly.

Do you think the Euro has been a good thing for Greece, Irealnd, Italy and Spain thus far?


I am really no expert in all of this, but I'm not sure it's fair to compare these countries, and the reason they've all ended up in the shit. I also don't think you can just blame the euro.


Too much making hay whilst the sun shined, and greed certainly did Ireland no favours.

In the documentary last night it was interesting to see a greek analyst say that Europe gave the greek money to modernise farming and industry in order to increase productivity and competitiveness, and they spent it on mercedes and nice apartments, then borrowed cheap money to buy more cars and do up the nice apartments, and now that it's all gone tits up they're completely in the shit because they've actually gone backwards over the last 30 years.


THe Euro has its faults for sure but I agree with otta (what otta said?) that the main reason the pigs are suffering is greed and short-sightedness, not fundamental structuring issues with the single currency.


Not Britain's problem any more I guess is it ;)

A single currency can only work if there is both a single monetary and single fiscal policy. The Euro only had a common monetary policy. There was attempted convergence of fiscal policy (eg 3% budget deficits etc), but this did not remove the significant structural differences across the Euro area in terms of wage rates, competitiveness, productivity etc. What it needed was significant and continiuing fiscal tranfers between regions, and a common fiscal policy - these were not in place, and hence the experiment was structurally flawed from the start. Unless the Germans allow the ECB to intervene and act as the lender of last resort, and agree to bail out the PIIGs through fiscal transfers, then the EURO will fail. Its that simple. Britain was right to stay out, and was right to veto the "ignore the elephant in the room" deal agreed last week.

...Indeed and evidence of that elephant in one of the countries that's meant to be a key driver of the new "Europe", from BBC:


Meanwhile, French presidential candidate Francois Hollande has said that he would seek to renegotiate the deal on the euro agreed last week.


Mr Hollande, who is the Socialist Party's challenger to President Nicolas Sarkozy at next year's elections, said the agreement was not the right solution for the European Union.


Francois Hollande is the Socialist Party's candidate for next year's elections He said he wanted greater powers for the European Central Bank (ECB) and for member states to issue joint eurobonds.


Germany is opposed to such measures.


Speaking to RTL radio, Mr Hollande said: "This accord is not the right answer, nor does it have the urgency.


"If I am elected president, I will negotiate, renegotiate this deal to include what is missing today."


Members of Mr Hollande's party have accused President Sarkozy of bowing to German pressure on the issues of the ECB's power and eurobonds.


France is holding its presidential election in two rounds of voting on 22 April and 6 May. President Sarkozy has yet to declare his candidacy but is widely expected to stand.


Polling organisations currently predict that Mr Hollande would beat Mr Sarkozy in the second round of voting.


I'm not sure what's going to overwhelm it first economics or politics.....

It's just bluster from Hollande, he's presenting vary little change over the currrent solution safe that his bluff will never be called.


The Germans haven't said there can't be a Eurobond, they said that you need accountability before you can issue them - otherwise the peripheral nations continue to spend money they don't have without accountability.


Hollande's saying they could have been issued at the same time as the new accountability legislation.


By the time he achieves power (asssuming he does), he'd be able to call for Eurobonds because the financial agreements will be in place. So could (and probably will) Sarkozy.

So far as I understand it's several items:


A deposit in escrow that is 'fined' if a country exceeds the 3% of GDP deficit limit.

A constitutional amendment by nation to balance budgets

EU High Court to confirm compliance


The Euro supporting currently include the following (but no Eurobond):


?500 billion ($669 million) European Stability Mechanism bailout fund into action in 2012

?200 billion to the International Monetary Fund's general account

The language on creditor losses would be moved to a preamble to the legal text setting out the rules to avoid scaring off potential lenders to wobbly countries

Or, in the real world.


"There is not much more than a blank sheet of paper and even the name of the future treaty might still change" - Petr Necas, the prime minister of the Czech Republic.


There was no summit, there was no treaty, deals or agreements and there certainly was no "veto".


It was a meeting. That's all. No new "Lisbon Treaty" was ever on the table. But in the best spirits of the EU - smoke, mirrors, fraud and bullshit will reign. Not only was this very far from being a finished treaty, Van Rumparse only proposed a Council meeting in March to give a mandate for limited treaty change, followed by an Intergovernmental Conference to draft the amendments. This is clear proof that a treaty cannot have existed last week.


And when questioned directly, our glorious leader professes thus -:


"As I said in my statement, the eurozone members wanted to create a new treaty within the EU, which has all sorts of dangers. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the letter that Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy sent, he will see that they specifically wanted the 17 to look at issues such as financial services and the market within that treaty. Without safeguards, a treaty within a treaty would have been far more dangerous than a treaty outside the EU."


So, again. To be absolutely clear.


There was no summit, there was no treaty, deals or agreements and there certainly was no "veto".


*Edit to say*


Our own Prime Minister lies to - sorry, misleads, the country. Again. His Civil Service must know this, and therefore this must be a willful act.


"45 minutes from attack" - so say Tony Blair in Parliament, and thus screams the press. Whilst neglecting to add it was third hand suspect intelligence, overheard by a taxi driver. And only regarded battlefield weapons - not a direct threat to the UK.


It begs the question as to why they need to lie.

Its plain, bland food. You know, without chillies and stuff.


Life will be like it used to be in the 1940s and 1950s when no-one had any money. No cars, less travel and definitely no foreign food.


Plain food* is the future, not Europe.




Edited to add: *but there won't be much to go round.

"the powerhouses of Europe are creating a superpower on our doorstep"


recognise the quote?


So, H, with the benefit of a few days calm analysis and an opportunity to see what the wider world thinks of the summit and the 'agreement', would you still describe this in the same terms?

French bank chief urges Britain credit downgrade


France stoked cross-Channel tensions today when its central bank chief suggested Britain should suffer a credit downgrade. As yet another EU summit was called for early next year, amid fears that the freshly drawn up fiscal compact could unravel, Christian Noyer, governor of the Banque de France, said ratings agencies should target London ahead of Paris. Britain had more debt and higher inflation and bank lending was ?collapsing?, said Mr Noyer. His comments come after President Sarkozy branded David Cameron an ?obstinate kid? for his stance at last week?s Brussels summit, reflecting continuing bad blood between the capitals over the ailing eurozone...


(The Times)


Cue 'Hoppit you frogs' and 'Up yours Noyer' headlines in tomorrow's Sun

H, I asked the question to give you a chance to retreat to a more rational place rather than maintain your current level of delusion, but obviously it's up to you. Way, way back on this thread (I can't be bothered to look it up) I said that literally no-one agrees with you on this - not just on this forum, but in the world - and that should give you pause for thought. That's more true now than it was then. There's no point in 'debating' this with you - it's like trying to explain calculus to a teapot.

DaveR, you claim that 'literally' no-one agrees with me in the world, and then suggest that I should retreat to a more rational place?


Ha ha.


I suspect that you ascribe thoughts and beliefs to me that I don't have, and project attitudes onto others that they don't share.


Notably, the attempt to gather 'forces' around you that share your opinion is simply to engage in rhetorical bullying. I really don't care how big your 'gang' is, regardless of whether they exist solely in your own imagination.


Just to show us what an insightful little devil you are, why don't you list my delusions (feel free to quote me) and then provide evidence that 'literally' no- one agrees with me in the world? My guess is that actually you'll make a lot of claims about what I believe in that simply aren't true.


I will consequently expect you to provide data to back up any claims, instead of just your blah blah blah opinion.


No? Don't fancy that? I thought not.

"the powerhouses of Europe are creating a superpower on our doorstep"


This quote from Huguenot is actually rather telling and he is correct.


Let us consider the European Stability Mechanism, or ESM. A permanent rescue funding programme to succeed the temporary ESTF. The ESM is due to be launched as soon as Eurozone Member States have ratified it, due July 2012. Here are some rather frightening pieces of the draft legislation.


Article 8: Authorised capital stock


1. The authorised capital stock shall be EUR seven hundred billion (700,000,000,000)


Why that number? Where did it come from? How was it calculated?


Article 9: Capital Calls


3. ...ESM Members hereby irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay on demand any capital call made on them (...) within seven (7) days of receipt of such demand.


Does this mean that all future Governments, even if they do not want to, must pay any demands made to it?


Article 10: Changes in authorised capital stock


1. (The Board of Governors) may decide to change the authorised capital and amend Article 8 (...) accordingly.


So EUR 700,000,000,000 is just the start, and the ESM can suck money in to it when it damn well likes? And we must irrevocably and unconditionally pay up?


Article 27: Legal status, privileges and immunities


2. The ESM (..) shall have full legal capacity (...) to institute legal proceedings

3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets (...) shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process

(...)


So the ESM can sue anyone it likes, but we cannot challenge it in court?


4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall (...) be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.


So no Government, law or elected will of the people can touch the ESM? The Mafia must be sooooo jealous.


Article 30: Immunities of Persons


1. Governors, alternate Governors, Director, alternate Directors, the Managing Director and staff members shall be immune from legal process with respect to acts performed by them (...) and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents.


So all staff are untouchable. Does the inviolability of documents mean we cannot even see what is written?


So this is a single unelected organisation that is untouchable by any law or Government, has no independent reviewers and is immune from all forms of prosecution that into which the Eurozone is forced to transfer unlimited assets within 7 days on order?


What could possibly go wrong?


Of course, me highlighting this means that I am a xenophobic, racist little Englander without any concerns for our friends across the channel, and Huguenot is right to insist that we must sign up to the Eurozone. Immediately.



*Edit to say*


Fitch's say that a comprehensive solution was now "technically and politically beyond reach".


Clegg says that critics not to exploit the Eurozone crisis to foster "xenophobia, chauvinism and polarisation".


You see, Huguey, if people are called xenophobic enough times for expressing such concerns, then eventually people won't really give a fuck about such labels.

"Huguenot is right to insist that we must sign up to the Eurozone. Immediately."


You see that's exactly what I mean.


I have not suggested that.


So what you, what DaveR, what Quids do is make things up and then claim that I've said them.


The things is, because you cannot be honest about that, there is no reason to believe you're being honest about anything else.


So what you have done there is cherry picked legal items from a document you haven't read and positioned them dishonestly out of context.


The legislation is designed to protect the integrity of the fund from misappropriation, the opposite of what you claim.


Most likely it's just a copy and paste job anyway.


Hence beacuse you tell lies about why you're anti-European, QED you are prejudiced.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Latest Discussions

    • The is very low water pressure in the middle of Friern Road this morning.
    • I think mostly those are related to the same "issues". In my experience, it's difficult using the pin when reporting problems, especially if you're on a mobile... There's two obvious leaks in that stretch and has been for sometime one of them apparently being sewer flooding 😱  
    • BBC Homepage Skip to content Accessibility Help EFor you Notifications More menu Search BBC                     BBC News Menu   UK England N. Ireland Scotland Alba Wales Cymru Isle of Man Guernsey Jersey Local News Vets under corporate pressure to increase revenue, BBC told   Image source,Getty Images ByRichard Bilton, BBC Panorama and Ben Milne, BBC News Published 2 hours ago Vets have told BBC Panorama they feel under increasing pressure to make money for the big companies that employ them - and worry about the costly financial impact on pet owners. Prices charged by UK vets rose by 63% between 2016 and 2023, external, and the government's competition regulator has questioned whether the pet-care market - as it stands - is giving customers value for money. One anonymous vet, who works for the UK's largest vet care provider, IVC Evidensia, said that the company has introduced a new monitoring system that could encourage vets to offer pet owners costly tests and treatment options. A spokesperson for IVC told Panorama: "The group's vets and vet nurses never prioritise revenue or transaction value over and above the welfare of the animal in their care." More than half of all UK households are thought to own a pet, external. Over the past few months, hundreds of pet owners have contacted BBC Your Voice with concerns about vet bills. One person said they had paid £5,600 for 18 hours of vet-care for their pet: "I would have paid anything to save him but felt afterwards we had been taken advantage of." Another described how their dog had undergone numerous blood tests and scans: "At the end of the treatment we were none the wiser about her illness and we were presented with a bill of £13,000."   Image caption, UK pet owners spent £6.3bn on vet and other pet-care services in 2024, according to the CMA Mounting concerns over whether pet owners are receiving a fair deal prompted a formal investigation by government watchdog, the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA). In a provisional report, external at the end of last year, it identified several issues: Whether vet companies are being transparent about the ownership of individual practices and whether pet owners have enough information about pricing The concentration of vet practices and clinics in the hands of six companies - these now control 60% of the UK's pet-care market Whether this concentration has led to less market competition and allowed some vet care companies to make excess profits 'Hitting targets' A vet, who leads one of IVC's surgeries (and who does not want to be identified because they fear they could lose their job), has shared a new internal document with Panorama. The document uses a colour code to compare the company's UK-wide tests and treatment options and states that it is intended to help staff improve clinical care. It lists key performance indicators in categories that include average sales per patient, X-rays, ultrasound and lab tests. The vet is worried about the new policy: "We will have meetings every month, where one of the area teams will ask you how many blood tests, X-rays and ultrasounds you're doing." If a category is marked in green on the chart, the clinic would be judged to be among the company's top 25% of achievers in the UK. A red mark, on the other hand, would mean the clinic was in the bottom 25%. If this happens, the vet says, it might be asked to come up with a plan of action. The vet says this would create pressure to "upsell" services. Panorama: Why are vet bills so high? Are people being priced out of pet ownership by soaring bills? Watch on BBC iPlayer now or BBC One at 20:00 on Monday 12 January (22:40 in Northern Ireland) Watch on iPlayer For instance, the vet says, under the new model, IVC would prefer any animal with suspected osteoarthritis to potentially be X-rayed. With sedation, that could add £700 to a bill. While X-rays are sometimes necessary, the vet says, the signs of osteoarthritis - the thickening of joints, for instance - could be obvious to an experienced vet, who might prefer to prescribe a less expensive anti-inflammatory treatment. "Vets shouldn't have pressure to do an X-ray because it would play into whether they are getting green on the care framework for their clinic." IVC has told Panorama it is extremely proud of the work its clinical teams do and the data it collects is to "identify and close gaps in care for our patients". It says its vets have "clinical independence", and that prioritising revenue over care would be against the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons' (RCVS) code and IVC policy. Vets say they are under pressure to bring in more money per pet   Published 15 April 2025 Vets should be made to publish prices, watchdog says   Published 15 October 2025 The vet says a drive to increase revenue is undermining his profession. Panorama spoke to more than 30 vets in total who are currently working, or have worked, for some of the large veterinary groups. One recalls being told that not enough blood tests were being taken: "We were pushed to do more. I hated opening emails." Another says that when their small practice was sold to a large company, "it was crazy... It was all about hitting targets". Not all the big companies set targets or monitor staff in this way. The high cost of treatment UK pet owners spent £6.3bn on vet and other pet-care services in 2024 - equal to just over £365 per pet-owning household, according to the CMA. However, most pet owners in the UK do not have insurance, and bills can leave less-well-off families feeling helpless when treatment is needed. Many vets used not to display prices and pet owners often had no clear idea of what treatment would cost, but in the past two years that has improved, according to the CMA. Rob Jones has told Panorama that when his family dog, Betty, fell ill during the autumn of 2024 they took her to an emergency treatment centre, Vets Now, and she underwent an operation that cost almost £5,000. Twelve days later, Betty was still unwell, and Rob says he was advised that she could have a serious infection. He was told a diagnosis - and another operation - would cost between £5,000-£8,000.   Image caption, Betty's owners were told an operation on her would cost £12,000 However, on the morning of the operation, Rob was told this price had risen to £12,000. When he complained, he was quoted a new figure - £10,000. "That was the absolute point where I lost faith in them," he says. "It was like, I don't believe that you've got our interests or Betty's interests at heart." The family decided to put Betty to sleep. Rob did not know at the time that both his local vet, and the emergency centre, branded Vets Now, where Betty was treated, were both owned by the same company - IVC. He was happy with the treatment but complained about the sudden price increase and later received an apology from Vets Now. It offered him £3,755.59 as a "goodwill gesture".   Image caption, Rob Jones says he lost faith in the vets treating his pet dog Betty Vets Now told us its staff care passionately for the animals they treat: "In complex cases, prices can vary depending on what the vet discovers during a consultation, during the treatment, and depending on how the patient responds. "We have reviewed our processes and implemented a number of changes to ensure that conversations about pricing are as clear as possible." Value for money? Independent vet practices have been a popular acquisition for corporate investors in recent years, according to Dr David Reader from the University of Glasgow. He has made a detailed study of the industry. Pet care has been seen as attractive, he says, because of the opportunities "to find efficiencies, to consolidate, set up regional hubs, but also to maximise profits". Six large veterinary groups (sometimes referred to as LVGs) now control 60% of the UK pet care market - up from 10% a decade ago, according to the CMA, external. They are: Linnaeus, which owns 180 practices Medivet, which has 363 Vet Partners with 375 practices CVS Group, which has 387 practices Pets at Home, which has 445 practices under the name Vets for Pets IVC Evidensia, which has 900 practices When the CMA announced its provisional findings last autumn, it said there was not enough competition or informed choice in the market. It estimated the combined cost of this to UK pet owners amounted to £900m between 2020-2024. Corporate vets dispute the £900m figure. They say their prices are competitive and made freely available, and reflect their huge investment in the industry, not to mention rising costs, particularly of drugs. The corporate vets also say customers value their services highly and that they comply with the RCVS guidelines.   Image caption, A CMA survey suggests pet owners are happy with the service they receive from vets A CMA survey suggests pet owners are happy with their vets - both corporate and independent - when it comes to quality of service. But, with the exception of Pets at Home, customer satisfaction on cost is much lower for the big companies. "I think that large veterinary corporations, particularly where they're owned by private equity companies, are more concerned about profits than professionals who own veterinary businesses," says Suzy Hudson-Cooke from the British Veterinary Union, which is part of Unite. Proposals for change The CMA's final report on the vet industry is expected by the spring but no date has been set for publication. In its provisional report, it proposed improved transparency on pricing and vet ownership. Companies would have to reveal if vet practices were part of a chain, and whether they had business connections with hospitals, out-of-hours surgeries, online pharmacies and even crematoria. IVC, CVS and Vet Partners all have connected businesses and would have to be more transparent about their services in the future. Pets at Home does not buy practices - it works in partnership with individual vets, as does Medivet. These companies have consistently made clear in their branding who owns their practices. The big companies say they support moves to make the industry more transparent so long as they don't put too high a burden on vets. David Reader says the CMA proposals could have gone further. "There's good reason to think that once this investigation is concluded, some of the larger veterinary groups will continue with their acquisition strategies." The CMA says its proposals would "improve competition by helping pet owners choose the right vet, the right treatment, and the right way to buy medicine - without confusion or unnecessary cost". For Rob Jones, however, it is probably too late. "I honestly wouldn't get another pet," he says. "I think it's so expensive now and the risk financially is so great.             Food Terms of Use About the BBC Privacy Policy Cookies Accessibility Help Parental Guidance Contact the BBC Make an editorial complaint BBC emails for you Copyright © 2026 BBC. The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read about our approach to external linking.
    • What does the area with the blue dotted lines and the crossed out water drop mean? No water in this area? So many leaks in the area.
Home
Events
Sign In

Sign In



Or sign in with one of these services

Search
×
    Search In
×
×
  • Create New...