Marks and Spencers' delivery lorries using Chesterfield Grove and Melbourne Grove

[urban mariner]

When Marks and Spencers took over the Iceland site residents of Chesterfield Grove had concerns about the timing of vehicle deliveries. Iceland had restricted their delivery times so as to not disturb residents.

At the planning application meeting Marks and Spencers insisted that their business model required deliveries at all times and then produced a ground plan showing how all their vehicles could enter from the Lordship Lane end and negotiate the tight turn around the wall of the car wash to access their delivery yard so that there would be no vehicle movements down Chesterfield Grove.

As anyone who lives in Chesterfield Grove and Melbourne Grove now knows this is not the case and vehicles repeatedly drive down Chesterfield Grove to execute a three point turn at the junction of Chesterfield Grove and Melbourne Grove.

Vehicles also enter and leave via Melbourne Grove to avoid Lordship Lane

(For example two at 9.00 am this morning, entering from Melbourne Grove)

No doubt their drivers are under pressure to make their deliveries on time and do this because the entrance is often blocked by vehicles from the car wash and badly parked cars.

As a responsible company Marks and Spencers should deal with this nuisance and potential hazard and do what they claimed they would do instead of allowing this unsatisfactory situation to continue.

Could any else who feels that this is problem please raise their concerns with Marks and Spencers and local councillors?

[Sally Eva]

Research M&S planning permission. If it refers to the delivery arrangements then complain that they are not keeping to the terms of the planning permission

[uncleglen]

'No doubt their drivers are under pressure to make their deliveries on time and do this because the entrance is often blocked by vehicles from the car wash and badly parked cars.'

We shall complain about the car wash and the badly parked cars....

[Goodrich1]

How is a 9 am delivery a disturbance or hindrance? We live close to a bustling high street and we all chose to live here.

[first mate]

The key point is that it was if I remember a condition of planning consent re M&S that delivery lorries would only access the delivery area via the route from Lordship Lane and never from the Melbourne Grove end. It would appear this condition is now being flouted.

[Jennys]

I have seen the lorries parked on the pedestrian crossing on Lordship Lane outside Marks and Spencer and also at the bus stop.

[Jim1234]

People also live on the roads you're suggesting they should use instead.

[Angelina]

9am is a reasonable time, is it not? school run's over, majority of people have gone to work. If it was night time, that would be a problem because majority of people like to sleep at night time; It's early enough when daytime people aren't really out and about yet.

What did it say in the planning permission? I can't remember... I think people were worried the deliveries would block Lordship Lane or that they would be at unsociable hours.

[first mate]

I am not sure the poster was making an issue of the time but was simply giving a time as part of what they witnessd. The salient point is that a planning condition is being flouted. That condition was made with good reason and after much consideration.

[Siduhe]

M&S has been flouting the delivery conditions for the site since day one - bearing in mind that the conditions required them not to deliver via Lordship Lane but only to the rear of the site. They agreed to this despite residents telling them it wouldn?t work (which it didn?t) - lo and behold they applied to remove the delivery conditions post occupation on the grounds they were unworkable. There was a long thread on this at the time of the application to remove conditions and I can?t remember if they also applied to remove the timing/delivery route conditions. Will see if I can hunt it out.

[first mate]

A key issue around this application was the size of the delivery entrance at the rear which residents said over and over and over was not fit for purpose and which means delivery vehicles can only approach from certain angles. It was pointed out that vehicles waiting for the car wash regularly block the street and access to the entrance (S'wark parking wardens seem to give the car wash special treatment)causing jams in the street.

The M&S developers used computer drawn graphics to show how easily their vehicles could get in and out of the tiny service entrance and how problem free it would all be and S'wark planning swallowed it.

What is the point of planning, the process and stipulations if giants like M&S simply ignore them knowing full well they can get them reversed down the line? What a farce.

[jamesmcash]

Hi all

I have previously looked into this issue on behalf of some local residents.

The planning permission obtained by M&S has restrictions on the time of deliveries. Specifically condition 6 states:

"Servicing in connection with the retail unit should not take place outside of the hours of 07:00 to 22:00 on Mondays to Saturdays or 10:00 to 18:00 on Sunday and Bank and Public Holidays". There has been evidence in the past of this condition not being adhered to, which I have followed up at the time. Please let me know if there are further violations of this condition.

However, regarding the routes that deliveries take there are no restrictions. Previously all deliveries were through the front side (main entrance). This was mainly due to the sizes of delivery vehicles which were too long and unable to turn onto the back of the store from Chesterfield Grove. However, they now have special small delivery vans which can easily access into the back of the store/car park from Chesterfield Grove and hence residents would have noticed these changes. They still have one long lorry once or twice a week which still uses the front main entrance.

So in short, if you see deliveries taking place outwith the times stipulated then this is a planning violation and should be reported, but there are no restrictions on which route the delivery lorries take.

This application was well before my time so I cannot comment on the planning process, and only on the enforcement of the planning conditions since.

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

James

[Abe_froeman]

Oof

[first mate]

James, thanks for clarification. When was the restriction on the route lifted, because as you say there was one in place?

[jamesmcash]

Hi firstmate

No I don't think that's right. As far as I know there has never been a restriction on route in place. The change in route is down to M&S changing its vehicles.

Best wishes

James

[first mate]

That's really odd because a number of us were under the impression there was a restriction at some point. Mind you, there were so many successive applications, where things were changed wach time, that it was hard to keep track.Again, thanks for clarifying.

[KoolBananas]

urban mariner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When Marks and Spencers took over the Iceland site

> residents of Chesterfield Grove had concerns about

> the timing of vehicle deliveries. Iceland had

> restricted their delivery times so as to not

> disturb residents.

>

> At the planning application meeting Marks and

> Spencers insisted that their business model

> required deliveries at all times and then produced

> a ground plan showing how all their vehicles could

> enter from the Lordship Lane end and negotiate the

> tight turn around the wall of the car wash to

> access their delivery yard so that there would be

> no vehicle movements down Chesterfield Grove.

>

> As anyone who lives in Chesterfield Grove and

> Melbourne Grove now knows this is not the case and

> vehicles repeatedly drive down Chesterfield Grove

> to execute a three point turn at the junction of

> Chesterfield Grove and Melbourne Grove.

> Vehicles also enter and leave via Melbourne Grove

> to avoid Lordship Lane

>

> (For example two at 9.00 am this morning, entering

> from Melbourne Grove)

>

> No doubt their drivers are under pressure to make

> their deliveries on time and do this because the

> entrance is often blocked by vehicles from the car

> wash and badly parked cars.

>

> As a responsible company Marks and Spencers

> should deal with this nuisance and potential

> hazard and do what they claimed they would do

> instead of allowing this unsatisfactory situation

> to continue.

>

> Could any else who feels that this is problem

> please raise their concerns with Marks and

> Spencers and local councillors?

I'm curious, what has brought on this sudden concern over this whole thing? Has something changed recently that has sparked this "complaint"?

[XIX]

delivery at 0625 this morning......

[jamesmcash]

Dear XIX

Would you mind emailing me with your name and address? I'll look into this.

Best wishes

James

[KoolBananas]

No answer to my Q?

[jamesmcash]

Dear KoolBananas

My understanding was that this was due to M&S employing the use of new delivery vans which could take a different route, as explained above.

However, I understand that others have been told that the Council was involved in asking M&S to stop arranging deliveries on Lordship Lane and it was this which caused the increase in traffic on Chesterfield Grove. I am looking into it further to make sure.

Best wishes

James

[KoolBananas]

Thanks James but that's not what I was meaning nor what is directed at you.

To clarify my query - Why has this issue popped up now? What has changed since their opening back in 2016 that seems to have riled those in Chesterfield Grove/Melbourne Grove?

As a resident myself, lorries have been coming up and down both roads over the last 30+ years causing a lot bother then than since M & S arrived regardless of size.

[bels123]

James - I wonder if it's possible for you to look into how and whether the roads with issues from lorries could be made part of the London Lorry Control Scheme, or Southwark's own equivalent? I don't know too much about it but have in the past seen signs like in the link below on other 'rat-run' type roads such as Lyndhurst Grove and Wood Vale and think it could really help us in Goose Green ward.

We have similar issues on the northern section of Melbourne Grove, with loud lorries crashing across the speed bumps in the early hours, or private rubbish trucks doing collections between 4-7am.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-weight-restriction-traffic-signs-for-lorries-england-uk-42050843.html

[alex_b]

A similar issue on the Maxted, Nutbrook, Adys, CPR rat run. If there?s a scheme to implement that would be a huge help.

[tortor]

This has become an issue again because things have got worse. The lorry deliveries seem to be far more regular, and are starting earlier in the day. The problem is that Chesterfield Grove is a perfect storm, so to speak... A popular shop, next to a popular car wash in a street that is used as a cut through and is already full of cars, many of which are not owned by residents.

So if cars are parked badly at the Lordship Lane end of Chesterfield Grove, delivery trucks can't get into M&S, cars back up and can't get past each other, and everyone gets very grumpy. I realise I have conflated two slightly different issues here, but the frequence of the M&S vehicles, and their timing, does seem to be more of a problem now than it has been for a while. And writing as someone who well remembers the Iceland days, whilst the trucks were big, they were far less frequent and disruptive.