Sports-ground proposal, Burrow Road / Greendale

[Alex K]

Southwark Council has obtruded itself upon me through my letterbox again, asking for comment on a policy-departure scheme to build over playing fields in the little enclave behind the Dog Kennel Hill Sainsbury's. I transcribe:

"Development of new sports and recreation facilities to comprise full-length football pitch with associated floodlighting; six multi-use games areas with associated floodlighting; BMX track; new two-storey clubhouse with space for 200 spectator seats; parking area for 46 cars; coach park; and" -- huzzah! -- "an educational nature trail with new access points off Greendale".

What "nature"? At the verges of the coach park?

Anyhow. So far as I know this is something new, but if not, please point me to the thread where I can pick up from neighbours the best arguments to deploy in the letter that now I must write.

Or if this is INDEED something new then please in your responses lay out those arguments for me, and thanks in advance for putting things better than I can hope to do.

[Loz]

I'm a bit in two minds over this one. What do other people think? It could be a good local facility.

[Chener Books]

Anyone remember John Beasley and his OTDOGS campaign of 30 years ago? Prescient.

What, exactly, is a gated footpath?

The docum,ents are here.

John K

[James Barber]

Fascinating.

Why would the Dulwich Hamlets Football Club need to build a new club house and football pitch behind its exsiting club house and football pitch.

Unless of course the lease is up and they need to vacate the site in which case building on Metropolitian Open Land for this proposal will result in the current football pitch being turned into a more out of town shopping or housing.

My fear is the latter.

[Penguin68]

Does the existing ground etc. meet current FA rules about what grounds should be (at whatever level they are now playing or aspire to play) - I know that improvements to grounds are frequently required for teams aspiring or actually playing at higher levels?

I cannot see anywhere (mainly because I cannot be bothered to look) whether there is a rationale being put forward for this change.

[James Barber]

This would be a club house with far less room for spectators. Also the application by Hamlet Football Club avoid any mention from my look of the current grounds.

We also know that a recent application to build a number of flats on their existing car park was made.

[Alex K]

Page 10 of the tree-preserving application

http://planningonline.southwarksites.com/planningonline2/DocsOnline/Documents/192179_1.pdf

shows the present Dulwich Hamlets car park occupied by housing.

[Loz]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Unless of course the lease is up and they need to

> vacate the site in which case building on

> Metropolitian Open Land for this proposal will

> result in the current football pitch being turned

> into a more out of town shopping or housing.

>

> My fear is the latter.

The former or the latter? I wouldn't have a problem with the current club ground being replaced with more St Francis Estate type housing. I would have a problem if the old Homebase idea (or similar) was dug up again.

[James Barber]

The trouble Loz, is you don't get to decide. If they build the new DHFC grounds and club house as per this application the freeholder of the current DHFC grounds decides what is built subject to planning permission. So even if you don't care about Metropolitan Open Land being built on.

And I would be surprised if it was low rise houses. That area would fall in the urban zone and be 4-6 storey blocks OR an out of town shop or some kind.

This is a major threat to East Dulwich.

[Loz]

Thanks James - it's that sort of info that can really swing things.

From memory of the old Homebase application - isn't there also a covenant on the Greendale site?

[James Barber]

Apparently Southwark Council is the freeholder of the site. The leaseholder is Dulwich Hamlets Football Club. Unusually the lease has been described as being on a peppercorn tat te leaseholder can extend. The only way te freeholder can revoke te lease is if they have a specific purpose.

Apparently residents are now pushing for this Metropolitan Open Land to Have allotments - which Southwark is incredibly short of - and are not persuaded by the ever creeping DHFC.

[Loz]

I thought Kings College was the freeholder?

[Jennys]

I have a vague memory that years ago (over 20 years) King's swapped this freehold with Sainsbury's so King's got the Griffin sports ground in Dulwich village which had been Sainsbury's staff sports ground and Sainsbury's got the land at Dog kennel Hill to build the supermarket. But I may well have misremembered this, someone else might know if I am right.

[eastdulwichhenry]

Hi James and others

What is the latest on this application and any moves to oppose it? You mention residents pushing for allotment land above, but I am not aware of any residents associations in the area or how one might contact them.

I am very concerned about the development, particularly the impact on parking, traffic (obstructions) and the noise and pollution on the access road and proposed car park. It threatens to turn a really quiet neighbourhood into yet more urban jungle. I also think their travel assessment document, in which the facility and likely traffic usage is measured as if it is similar to East Dulwich Leisure centre underestimates the real effect of this. But I'm not sure if the council will take any notice, or if there is enough groundswell of opinion in the area (many residents are tenants rather than homeowners I guess, so not so directly affected personally).

Interested in any other views on the matter.

[DJKillaQueen]

Hmmm...the first question is why does the current ground need to be replaced? In my opinion it doesn't. DH rarely fills half the crowd capacity for matches anyway. And I say that as a fervant supporter of football and DH. And in my view, the ground is more than adequate for that level of league football. There are currently three astro turfs behind the ground, which admittedly aren't in great shape but can be easily replaced.

I'm guessing the application is about extending the additional facilities currently available for hire (so business and revenue related)(and it may be a necessary move to guarantee the financial survival of the football team) whilst also cashing in on the sale of the land of the old ground for lucrative housing development? I don't know what state the accounts of DH are in but no point building a shiny new ground with new stands if not enough people go to see matches. A new clubhouse could of course be better sound proofed than the current one for corporate events.

[James Barber]

I believe this application is about selling the current ground for redevelopment and replacing it on the Metropolitan Open Land behind.

As it is DH is trying to sell its car park for flats to be built on it.

[jev]

I would also be interested to know of any supporters of allotments and whether there's any point in pursuing.

I am a local resident and am more concerned about the land being used for community use that benefits more people than paying members of a club (though I'm not clear what DHFC intentions are regarding membership/use of the proposed development) - and I'm sure lots of local residents whether tenants (many of whom have lived here for a long time so are directly affected) or leaseholders would share that concern...

[Alex K]

Whatever one's stance on this matter, consultation closes on 18 December. Time's a-wastin'!

[eastdulwichhenry]

In that case, anyone who has opinions should get their comments back to Ms Pettit by then, so that a wide range of opinions can be noted. Most of those already lodged from residents seem to be against the proposal.

I've no idea if this makes any difference to the decision though. The worry is that the applicant, with their fancy 40 page documents, can muscle their way to the decision anyway.

[Alex K]

Today is the last day on which comment submitted on the proposal definitely will be taken into account. I wrote to

[email protected]

the text below. If inertia has prevented any readers from commenting unfavourably on the request, please consider cut-and-pasting from this text.

***

Re: GREENDALE SPORTS GROUND -- 11-AP-2250

To whom it may concern

Please reject the application before you (11-AP-2250) which seeks to tear down the present sports facilities at Greendale and Burrow Road, replacing them with enlarged new facilities and consuming metropolitan open land in the process.

The sports facilities in place at present are, I believe, not used to capacity. Before their extension is considered one should be sure that indeed capacity has been reached and regularly is exceeded.

Application recently has been made, if I remember correctly, to sell the sports-facilities car park at the junction of Abbotswood Road and Edgar Kail Way, with housing to be built on the present car park site.

Lacking a car park, the sports facilities will require a new parking area -- and the application requests one, for cars and coaches.

Why not leave the present car park as it is?

Why not renovate the present sports facilities, rather than tear them down and build new ones?

Why not leave urban open land alone, rather than sacrificing it -- with this sidling manoeuvre -- for new housing?

Please respect and adhere to the saved policy 3.25 (Metropolitan Open Land) of the Southwark Plan 2007 and to Strategic Policy 11 Open Spaces and Wildlife of the Core Strategy 2011, to which your letter of notification refers and from which approval of this planning application will require a departure.

[eastdulwichhenry]

Update: The sports ground application has been refused by the council.

Application home page: http://tinyurl.com/7mau9nn

Decision reasons: http://tinyurl.com/7aco9ux

They seem to have ruled against, on quite a variety of reasons including the metropolitan open space, the environmental impact, transport impact etc.

Does anyone know where the application goes next? I guess the applicant has the right to appeal the decision, not quite sure to whom?

So this may not quite be the end of the road but good news for now, anyway.

[Alex K]

Thanks VERY much for the update. I'm pleased.

The other week I learnt from a neighbour that the "infill" gymnasium to be inserted between housing on the St Francis estate and the railway line has been, on appeal, approved. If that has a silver lining perhaps it is that even less reason now exists to expand sports facilities cheek-by-jowl with the "infill" project.

[eastdulwichhenry]

Urgghh that's not good, and suggests that whoever looks at appeals is not minded to listen to neighbour objections about noise and traffic or environmental issues (that area between Abbotswood and the railway is the only area of green in its surroundings).

I'm not very familiar with planning laws, but it does seem from this case as is the current system, with appeals possible even when the council gives solid grounds for rejection, favours corporations with big clout over local people and the goal of preserving what green space remains in inner London. (If I'm not wrong, an appeal can be made to a national planning inspectorate, taking the decision out of local hands altogether).

[Alex K]

My recollection is that the space between Abbotswood and the railway line is not yet threatened -- and that the "infill" facility is to be shoehorned between Talbot and the railway line -- but that may be an error on my part, a bit of wishful thinking. With respect to the larger matter, indeed I agree with you: Local wishes have been trampled.

[eastdulwichhenry]

I'm afraid it is the whole area between both Abbotswood and Talbot Roads and the railway - it is basically one long thin strip, which you can't really tell is there from the ground, but which looks like a nice green tree zone on Google satellite: http://g.co/maps/4h6gc - I don't know what the proposal does with the trees, but their loss would be as bad as anything, in terms of being a CO2 sink for the area.

Here is the planning page for this application: http://tinyurl.com/7agnu6w