LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Penguin68]

Ultimately, if you want to reduce pollution, you have to reduce the number of car journeys.

That simply isn't true. You need to reduce the polluting effects of motor vehicles - already starting to be addressed through Ulez and the increasing number of electric and hybrid cars - hydrogen powered cars (when and if they come) have water as their 'pollutant' exhaust. Putting aside the diesel cheats - cars are now vastly cleaner than they were - and the trajectory is for further improvement. I wonder how the anti-car lobby would respond if all vehicles in Southwark were electric or hydrogen powered? What would their stick be to beat the motorist then?

Air quality in London is dramatically better already than it used to be in the past - and the quite recent past (not in those streets with standing traffic from the road closures, of course, now).

I am in favour of people exercising their free will to cycle and walk, and to do so in safety, but not, I think, at the expense of those people wishing to exercise their free will in another way.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Metallic Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > Yet people on this thread are claiming that

> > Dulwich Village is back to back trafffic?!

>

> I went to look this morning. Yes, back to back to

> back to back to back, coaches, cars and vans.

> What fun to breathe that in if you live in those

> cottages opposite the Dog.

I passed through the Village on foot at 8:30 this morning and it was extremely quiet. What time were you there?

It seems that some people are claiming that all the traffic has been diverted from the Village to the South Circular and others are claiming the Village is at a stand still with back to back traffic. Meanwhile people are pointing to maps published in the Mail.

Walk over there and just see for yourselves.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Ultimately, if you want to reduce pollution, you

> have to reduce the number of car journeys.

>

> That simply isn't true. You need to reduce the

> polluting effects of motor vehicles - already

> starting to be addressed through Ulez and the

> increasing number of electric and hybrid cars -

> hydrogen powered cars (when and if they come) have

> water as their 'pollutant' exhaust. Putting aside

> the diesel cheats - cars are now vastly cleaner

> than they were - and the trajectory is for further

> improvement. I wonder how the anti-car lobby would

> respond if all vehicles in Southwark were electric

> or hydrogen powered? What would their stick be to

> beat the motorist then?

>

> Air quality in London is dramatically better

> already than it used to be in the past - and the

> quite recent past (not in those streets with

> standing traffic from the road closures, of

> course, now).

>

> I am in favour of people exercising their free

> will to cycle and walk, and to do so in safety,

> but not, I think, at the expense of those people

> wishing to exercise their free will in another

> way.

People aren't free to drive anywhere though are they? We make decisions about how to allocate space and at the moment there is a massively disproportionate amount of it given over to motor vehicles. I find it incredible that people genuinely want high traffic neighbourhoods.

[Earl Aelfheah]

andrewc Wrote:

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> Today at 3.45pm

These photos show traffic chaos!!

[Rockets]

andrewc Wrote:

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> Today at 3.45pm

Go take a look on Google Maps just an hour later - bet the pictures you could take if you went there now aren't quite so car free now. College Road is red, the A205 is red/black back to Rosemead School travelling eastbound, Dulwich Village is red/black, EDG is red/black, all of Lordship lane is red.....

[andrewc]

I'm not sure there is an "anti-car lobby" anymore in the sense that all the major UK political parties (apart from the Brexit Party) promoted themselves as supportive of reduced car use/increased walking and cycling in their latest manifestos. However I agree that even the most ardent 'active travel' supporter would not want to increase emissions by increasing standing traffic.

https://www.bikebiz.com/cycling-to-the-polls-what-does-each-party-offer-for-cyclists/

[Penguin68]

I walk where I can (but I'm over 70 and that isn't that far - more than 2 miles there and back again is definitely too far) - I live on a hill so cycling (which has to start and end on that hill) is not for me an attractive option - and I'm no longer that good a cyclist - I take public transport when it's a quicker/ easier option than driving (which, for many east/ West local journeys it certainly isn't) - and I still rely on my car (or an Uber) to do (much) of what I want to do. Our area (ED) is very poorly served by public transport - over the whole of August the Orange line though us was suspended every weekend, and tube stations are now shut early as well - so relying on public transport to get into London isn't always a runner - unless you have many hours to spare (and at my age, I don't).

I'm not unique in East Dulwich, I'm guessing.

I'm sure the millennial mavens will now be suggesting that old people like me shouldn't be living in London. If we can't run and cycle everywhere, get lost.

All I can say is - 'you'll be me one day - pray you don't meet you round the next corner'

[ED_moots]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Metallic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rahrahrah Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

>

> > > Yet people on this thread are claiming that

> > > Dulwich Village is back to back trafffic?!

> >

> > I went to look this morning. Yes, back to back

> to

> > back to back to back, coaches, cars and vans.

> > What fun to breathe that in if you live in

> those

> > cottages opposite the Dog.

>

> I passed through the Village on foot at 8:30 this

> morning and it was extremely quiet. What time were

> you there?

>

> It seems that some people are claiming that all

> the traffic has been diverted from the Village to

> the South Circular and others are claiming the

> Village is at a stand still with back to back

> traffic. Meanwhile people are pointing to maps

> published in the Mail.

>

> Walk over there and just see for yourselves.

I took a video at 8.47 this morning on Dulwich Village. Solid traffic from Gallery Road roundabout to the EDG lights. You must've just missed it rah, most vehicles were vans and lone commuters which perhaps explains andrewc's photos; not parents living down the road but working people who maybe unlikely or unable to change their commute. My kid is injured so we tried hopping on a bus but they weren't letting kids on - presumably shielding other bus users - which reduces options for those further afield or with multiple school drop offs.

This traffic build up is mainly due to the Calton Ave. Barrier which has had weeks to 'bed in' so not much evidence of people changing their MO. I took the vid because the Melbourne, Derwent, Elsie and Tintagel barriers went in today so I wanted to share with my neighbours what will become of EDG, Grove Vale and Lordship.

I agree with Rockets, ULEZ extension and the EV revolution will clean the air better.

[Rockets]

ED_moots Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Metallic Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > rahrahrah Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> >

> > > > Yet people on this thread are claiming that

> > > > Dulwich Village is back to back trafffic?!

> > >

> > > I went to look this morning. Yes, back to

> back

> > to

> > > back to back to back, coaches, cars and vans.

>

> > > What fun to breathe that in if you live in

> > those

> > > cottages opposite the Dog.

> >

> > I passed through the Village on foot at 8:30

> this

> > morning and it was extremely quiet. What time

> were

> > you there?

> >

> > It seems that some people are claiming that all

> > the traffic has been diverted from the Village

> to

> > the South Circular and others are claiming the

> > Village is at a stand still with back to back

> > traffic. Meanwhile people are pointing to maps

> > published in the Mail.

> >

> > Walk over there and just see for yourselves.

>

>

> I took a video at 8.47 this morning on Dulwich

> Village. Solid traffic from Gallery Road

> roundabout to the EDG lights. You must've just

> missed it rah, most vehicles were vans and lone

> commuters which perhaps explains andrewc's photos;

> not parents living down the road but working

> people who maybe unlikely or unable to change

> their commute. My kid is injured so we tried

> hopping on a bus but they weren't letting kids on

> - presumably shielding other bus users - which

> reduces options for those further afield or with

> multiple school drop offs.

Yes they appear to be running one bus for kids and one bus for everyone else - which makes planning a journey by bus even more challenging if you travel on a school route.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I am waking through the village and along the south circular now. I will post the pics when I get home. I can confirm that there is no ?TRAFFIC CHAOS?, just a fairly typical rush hour. Village actually remarkably quiet.

[slarti b]

andrewc Wrote:

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However I agree that even the most ardent 'active travel' supporter would not want to increase emissions by increasing standing traffic.

They may not want to increase standing traffic but that is the inevitable end result of the policies they support. It is the massive elephant in the room they refuse to address, or even acknowledge.

Putting in road closures will lead to a small amount of evaporation, maybe 5-10%? The rest will be be displaced onto main roads, and we know where these are in Dulwich even though councillors won't admit it.

[Metallic]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Metallic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rahrahrah Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

>

> > > Yet people on this thread are claiming that

> > > Dulwich Village is back to back trafffic?!

> >

> > I went to look this morning. Yes, back to back

> to

> > back to back to back, coaches, cars and vans.

> > What fun to breathe that in if you live in

> those

> > cottages opposite the Dog.

>

> I passed through the Village on foot at 8:30 this

> morning and it was extremely quiet. What time were

> you there?

>

> It seems that some people are claiming that all

> the traffic has been diverted from the Village to

> the South Circular and others are claiming the

> Village is at a stand still with back to back

> traffic. Meanwhile people are pointing to maps

> published in the Mail.

>

> Walk over there and just see for yourselves.

Suggest you amble by at 8am. I walked down there to have a look at that time.

[Metallic]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> andrewc Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Today at 3.45pm

>

> These photos show traffic chaos!!

So get out of your beds and take some snaps tomorrow morning. Then publish those.

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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>Village actually remarkably quiet.

How was the section going North of DV junction. Was there a long queue of cars watiing to turn right at Red Post hill on to EDG?

[tiddles]

Lordship lane near library stationary, town let queuing all the way down

This is a disaster

[Earl Aelfheah]

Dulwich Village

[slarti b]

andrewc Wrote:

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> Today at 3.45pm

Those pictures makes you wonder why the councililors need to make such disruptive chnages doesn't it ? :-)

IN reality of course, it shows that the traffic problem is very dependent on time, esecpially the mroning rush hour. That is why OneDulwich have always pushed for timed closures at the DV junction rather than a complete closure.

[Earl Aelfheah]

East Dulwich Grove

[Earl Aelfheah]

Middle of Lordship Lane

[Earl Aelfheah]

College Road

[Earl Aelfheah]

South Circular

[Earl Aelfheah]

Lordship Lane, Plough

[Earl Aelfheah]

OK, so time for some commentary..

[Earl Aelfheah]

All these pics were taken between 5 and 5:30

[Earl Aelfheah]

Notable 'hotspots' - heading north through the village between the little row of shops / Dulwich Hamlet school and the traffic lights at the junction with EDG