EU Trade Talks Thread

[keano77]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You?ve missed several hundreds posts j.a..

> You?ve

> > got a lot to catch up on.

>

>

> I?ve read the whole thread. You?re quite the

> pompous prick, and you?ve been avoiding questions

> for the whole shebang so far.

>

> Like I say, I see you.

Steady j.a. You're a welcomed new kid on the block and you?re jumping to conclusions.

I was referring to many posts that have been made on this subject pre-referendum and post referendum under the general heading of Brexit. It?s on here somewhere. The point I was making is don?t be fooled by Sephiroth?s posts. You?d be horrified at how badly Brexiters have been treated.

But you can make your own mind up about.

[j.a.]

On here? If that?s what you mean then I?m not particularly surprised - this is a heavily Remain supporting area and online people run their mouth (yes, me included).

I?ve been lurking here for many years before the boredom of lockdown pushed me into posting; even though back at work I?m still doing it. I?ve seen the arguments go back and forth over Brexit, here and everywhere else.

It?s getting late at night and I?m at the end of a 15 hour shift so I?m going to leave it and go home. But this whole ?Brexiters were treated badly? argument - you won. You won and then rammed it down the losers throats like a street fighter. Frankly that pissed off and alienated a lot of people who were otherwise aware that it was a democratic vote, and accepting the result is the price you pay for not living in a police state. A lot of us did accept the result, and since then have had to endure being told that we're traitors for not supporting Brexit.

But what is Brexit? No single version of it can command a majority across the whole Leave community, so the only thing that brings you together is No Deal.

I?m tired and rambling. You won. You promised us it would be ok. And look where we are now, no further forward as a society. It pisses me off, because Remainers and the EU are still being blamed for *everything*. No one on the Leave side is considering whether maybe they?ve messed up thus far, at all.

G?night...

[keano77]

Good post.

You said ...? You won and then rammed it down the losers throats like a street fighter...?

By this do you mean Brexiters generally or me individually?

If I did this I apologise to all concerned. I only intended to respond to what I considered unfair comments.

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You?ve missed several hundreds posts j.a..

> You?ve

> > got a lot to catch up on.

>

>

> I?ve read the whole thread. You?re quite the

> pompous prick, and you?ve been avoiding questions

> for the whole shebang so far.

>

> Like I say, I see you.

If you'd read all the thread, you'd know IM the pompous prick......

[JohnL]

Suella Braverman taking a bit of a hammering at the Bar Meeting today, but wouldn't be surprised if Boris/Cummings sack Brandon Lewis for announcing it.

"Five QCs confronted the attorney general during Saturday?s meeting, telling her that a crime which broke the law in a ?specific and limited way? ? the phrase used by the Northern Ireland secretary, Brandon Lewis, when he announced the move ? was still a crime."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/12/top-lawyers-slam-suella-braverman-for-wrecking-uks-reputation

[j.a.]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> If you'd read all the thread, you'd know IM the

> pompous prick......

To be fair I think we all take turns wearing that hat, and have done since 2016.

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good post.

>

> You said ...? You won and then rammed it down the

> losers throats like a street fighter...?

>

> By this do you mean Brexiters generally or me

> individually?

> If I did this I apologise to all concerned. I only

> intended to respond to what I considered unfair

> comments.

No, I wasn?t referring to you personally, and I could?ve been clearer.

I certainly was talking about the larger ?groupthink? of Leave voters who - I feel - took an understandable victory lap, and then kept taking it and rubbing people?s noses in it. The whole ?you lost, get over it? and so on. That?s where it became hot only unnecessary but divisive, and it was the lack of self-awareness on the part of those Leave voters (which is not the same as all Leave voters) which I feel angry about.

Leave won. It didn?t win on any particular mandate other than simply Leaving, and when the discussion about exactly what form Brexit we took began, anyone who?d voted Remain found themselves squeezed out of the discussion. Every version of Brexit has its pros and cons, and if a Remainer pointed out the issues with any given version they were accused of, well, you know the various things. It wears you down after a while, and makes you feel like you?re being told to just shut up and take whatever comes.

There was a point where I was giving serious thought to voting Leave, because I?m not blind to the problems of the EU. But no one could tell me what Brexit would look like - we now see why that?s the case. I personally couldn?t bring myself to support something that was essentially asking me to vote based on the blind faith of ?it?ll be alright?. The subsequent years have only reinforced on me the belief that no one in Leave actually knew how to get this done. There is a manifest disconnect between the campaign promises of Leave and how things have developed. I find it difficult to believe that the EU is entirely to blame for this, despite the protestations of Steve Baker et al.

(Edited got spelling mistakes because I wrote this before I?ve had coffee)

[j.a.]

Helmuth Von Molkte (the elder) is supposed to have said (I?ve never been able to find confirmation of it),

?Mistakes in the initial deployment can not be rectified?

This is what I feel went wrong after the referendum, the mistakes were made early on and it?s akin to putting a train on the wrong tracks in the station; you can switch it quickly if you see what?s happened, but once it?s on the move it?s too late. Two things epitomised this.

1. Article 50 didn?t have to be triggered so quickly. As soon as that happened the clock is ticking and the EU had the upper hand because they knew we weren?t ready.

2. May?s disastrous GE. No need to call it, absolutely no need. And now she?s lost the solid majority she had and everyone is jostling for position and advantage.

If I?d been in charge, I would?ve gotten everyone in a room together and told them that there was no way A50 was being triggered until we knew what we were doing. We didn?t have to go so fast, it hamstrung us from the beginning because there was no coherent foundation to the plan.

So here we are taking extraordinary measures to try and get what we want, mostly because the process was ballsed up at the very beginning, and no one realised in time.

[Sephiroth]

Mistakes happened before the referendum. It was birthed as a sop to the same lunatic wing of the tory party (and the usual newspaper suspects) and wasn?t given any definition, any legal status, usual ?gentleman?s word? promise on a leaflet from Cameron

There was no threshold set for such a major constitutional change and the undefined Brexit meant it could be all things to all people

It wasn?t fit for purpose. So if we want to speak of mistakes that is where I would focus

But it?s all too late now - we did leave at the start of the year after all

But the whole thing is a farce from top to bottom

English govt ineptitude then and now. It?s one reason why I want eu membership

Of course we can point to eu structural faults - but compared to how this country behaves? Nah

[j.a.]

Yeah, fair point. The whole set-up was badly thought out. But as you say, that?s just a history lesson now (though it?d be nice to think we learned something).

[j.a.]

It?s somewhat concerning that Braverman appears to have sources the legal advice regarding the Internal Market Bill not from the Treasury Council - who would usually be instructed - but rather from committed Brexiteers who seem unqualified for the job in more than one way.

[ianr]

.

[JohnL]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 2. May?s disastrous GE. No need to call it,

> absolutely no need. And now she?s lost the solid

> majority she had and everyone is jostling for

> position and advantage.

She fell apart though - and she wasn't under that much pressure. That crazy speech where she coughed, the letters fell off and she got a P45. Never seen anything like it.

The look of horror in her face.

[Blah Blah]

The real horror for May was in losing that majority in that snap election she called. It was all downhill from there.

[Sephiroth]

And yet, we are meant to believe that any of these people (Cameron, May, Johnson, Gove next?) are remotely capable of handling a small country in an increasingly hostile global environment on important matters?

They are all small people. Small minded, incapable of looking beyond their own nose

To lose one PM in 4 years is careless. To lose 3 (yes Johnson will be gone soon) shows you how crazy this situation is. The circle can?t be squared and this country will continue to decline at pace until people cop on and realise the country can?t leave eu and cherry pick the bits they like.

The best case scenario at the moment is a shitty deal, claimed in the short term as a victory only to lead to years and years of grumbling as people realise how worse off they are and how little influence they now have

This pattern of claiming victory only to see it disintegrate within months is well established. People need to start seeing that for what it is. A perpetual diet of snake oil

[JohnL]

Barnier and Frost are arguing it out on twitter now - can't be much official talks going on between them if they're having it out on twitter.

[j.a.]

To be fair tbh at may be for public consumption. I?d imagine there?s a lot more going on behind the scenes.

[Sephiroth]

I think by now we can call things as they are.

U.K. govt is staffed by liars and worse. We?ve all worked with people like Frost. That sort of wilful misrepresentation and belligerence always ends badly

In short. This is as bad or worse than it seems in public. Hoping for the rescuers to arrive is futile.

Ditch Johnson

Ditch this govt

When that happens, we will start to move forward

[Blah Blah]

There are already rumours that Boris will be gone within a year. That suggests that discontent behind the scenes is growing. Cummings was never liked by a lot of Tories MPs in the first place. Essentially, the party is in the hands of a cabal at the moment, that has to deliver on its promises, or it is out.

[Sephiroth]

Johnson won?t last anywhere near a year

[Blah Blah]

You might be right. He certainly doesn't look well these days.

[j.a.]

I?ve long suspected Gove of playing the long, long game here. He knew Johnson was unfit to be PM in 2016. After that he throws his weight behind him, knowing that it?s just a matter of when - not if.

When the axe falls it?ll be Gove?s greasy little mitts wielding it (and his horrendous partner, Sarah Vine, nasty pieces of work both of them). For a long time he?s reckoned he?ll be the next PM, but Sunak?s gonna give him a run for his money.

Gove knows the truth, that Boris is a bluffer who?s never actually dug in on delivering policy.

[Blah Blah]

Some valid points there J.a.

Sunak might not be a bad alternative in the end. And Sunak vs Starmer might make it feel as though the adults are back in the room, even if the mess they have to deal with might be beyond even them.

[Sephiroth]

Yep agreed ja and blah

I say Johnson will be gone sooner for more than health reasons tho. January is coming.

His party will do for him then

If gove gets in expect full on rogue state behaviour over Ireland. Possibly even war

Sunak gets a good press but not sure why. Preferable to gove mind

[Alan Medic]

War Sep? Between who?