EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

"Spoke too soon!.. smiling smiley smiling smiley smiling smiley"

indeed DR

Still, according to him he only pops in for an argument only to find it's the same people from 13 years ago, and flounces off again

Again, in his own words "I'm not a massive fan of Boris, but I've grown fonder of him purely on the basis of how much he gets up the noses of bien pensants types of the white metropolitan middle class. He must be doing something right."

and then gets all how very dare you when you point this out

and I still don't know why

[????]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> so you think that's worse than you talking to KK

> with "this patronising, elitist crap makes me

> laugh. You should stop believing what you read in

> The Guardian mate."

>

> that's somehow not personalising it? No. I don't know KK and he posted a load of patronising elitist crap - 'It woz the uneducated racists wot won it', similar lines to the high Tories before the Great Reform Act of 1832..the plebs can't be trusted. This is why you who think you're soooo progressive and sooooo right will continue to be disappointed. Happy New Year, no sign of a flounce

>

>

[KidKruger]

No one mentioned plebs apart from you, Quids.

That?s your own dialogue with yourself !

Obvious my statement above is a generalisation, as there were millions of individuals involved, but in that generality I stand by what I said.

There?s no elitism here and I think I?ve already clarified I?m in favour of voting for all !

And my point about undereducated isn?t to say people are thick, it?s about the perverted situation of a referendum event where people were conned and not knowledgeable enough to question critically the lies they were fed (in general). And the Tories knew it.

I?m not convinced that 17million (whatever) open-minded intellectuals with all the facts at hand and a background in critical thinking assessed the details and decided to vote Brexit while simultaneously not reading the Daily Mail and ignoring FaceBook adverts. My assessment is far, far closer to the truth.

[KidKruger]

Now what could it be that drove those emotions, the emotions that people voted on ??

Hmmm..

???? Wrote:

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> That?s very noble of you and pie in the sky

> fantasy in all democracies. You?re vastly

> underestimating the role of emotion in democratic

> decisions.

[????]

Democracy is a flawed, flaky and open to manipulation process but that's what it is. The referendum result was a legitimate decision within the boundaries of democracy. Votes weren't bought, people weren't intimidated, there wasn't mass scale corruption. Obama's campaign used data analytics very successfully, project fear was full of lies too. As i said, I think if we asked the same question again tomorrow we'd get the same answer. Nothing's gonna change that decision, remainers need to move on, as most have, dwelling on charlatans, thickies, russian bots. racism etc etc isn't gonna do anyone any good.

I voted remain, I'd vote remain again but I do accept the decision.

[Sephiroth]

Voters were promised a Brexit that was undeliverable in 2016

What they have now is very different from what was promised

That is not democracy

A referendum can change legislation on deliverables. Shall we join the eu? Shall we legalise divorce or abortion. Even (and it?s coming soon enough) legalising death penalty

All of those are democratic votes

But leaving the eu on the promise of all wins ? That?s not democratic. That?s a fundamental flaw. You can vote to leave the eu but you have to define what a post eu future will look like.

[KidKruger]

Making comments as part of an Internet forum discussion is just that, it?s not intended to be doing anybody any good.

And making observations as one sees fit is not about moving on or otherwise, it?s pertinent in the above context.

The ?moving on? trope is facile in this regard.

[????]

racism won it, is a trope too

[????]

PS Internet forum discussions are facile

[Sephiroth]

It?s not a trope. It?s a truism. To deny the racist bloc got leave over the line is just stubbornness

But ?Moving on? is a meaningless phrase. Take remainers out of the equation and you still have 18m people left who won?t ?move on? over the coming decades because we will continue to need eu access and constant negotiation. Will those people be told to stop complaining and ?move on?. Unlikely

[KidKruger]

It may be, in certain situations.

But to deny Brexit was heavily built on xenophobia is absurd.

And to recognise that xenophobia was a key tool for manipulation is merely an observation.

???? Wrote:

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> racism won it, is a trope too

[Sephiroth]

I mean, move on people!!!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1377057/brexit-news-deal-eu-european-court-of-justice-ecj-laws-uk-boris-johnson-horizon-spt

[????]

That's a damn fine straw you found there from a veritable source. Ok guys don't move on, sit and stew and boil and froth. Really won't do you any good what so ever.

[Sephiroth]

Meanwhile what nonsense is Matty Elliot peddling today?

Let?s put this in the time capsule and see how it ages

?My thoughts on Brexit deal: "We will not be under the gravitational pull of the EU, we will not be bound by EU rules, the ECJ will play no role in our legal affairs and we will have taken back control of our laws, borders, money, trade and fisheries" 👍🇬🇧

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/26/boris-johnson-has-pulled-brexit-deal-many-thought-incapable/

[Sephiroth]

You miss the point quids

It is leavers who will never move on

Just watch

[????]

We'll see. Wasn't Boris going to be out by the end of this year or early next max or something? Don't remember whether that was here or Twitter, but you were pretty adamant.

[????]

You should wash your hands and read some other viewpoints

[Sephiroth]

It was Johnson out and election before end of 2021 for me

I?m not cancelling that bet

(I did think Johnson ran risk of going before then. But he has kicked problems into next year because everyone is currently busy goshing themselves into tomorrow about what an amazing deal he has done. That will not last long)

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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>You can vote to leave the eu but you have to

define what a post eu future will look like.

I think the tangible evidence would suggest that you don't have to do anything of the sort.

It's perfectly reasonable to say 'I don't like X' so will vote against it.

I come back to my often mocked comment that many remainers are risk averse, and don't deal well with the heightened uncertainty of future direction. For many, the you may feel that letting a government determine the best path/method/process for leaving EU is reckless, others would argue it isn't.

[Sephiroth]

Hark at Liam Neeson here.

Some bets are too big - or has 12 years of austerity not been enough for you?

[wordsworth]

God this is pitiful to read...

[????]

I think on balance and with current trajectory I'll possibly vote for Starmer at the next GE.

But to say Boris is a joke is a bit laughable really.

He got a withdrawal agreement that most at the time said he wasn't going to get, he got a trade agreement that most people either said he wasn't aiming for (some tedious lefty 'it's destructive capitalism funded by his hedge fund mates' blah blah bollox) or was impossible*. He's been a conservative mayor of labour London twice, he won an 80 seat majority a year ago.

People who oppose him, for very many sound reasons, really really need to stop underestimating him. He's not a clown or a joke.

*for absolute clarity, neither are better than what we had when we were in the EU

[????]

wordsworth Wrote:

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> God this is pitiful to read...

I think you mean 'facile'

[????]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> It was Johnson out and election before end of 2021

> for me

>

> I?m not cancelling that bet

>

Genuine question, what are the circumstances that give us a GE next year? 80 seat majority, trade deal done, Covid probably looking rosier next. I just don?t see where you get a vote of no confidence in 2021 or in fact anytime before the next scheduled election. It?s almost inconceivable without some black swan event?

[Blah Blah]

I don't see a GE next year either. Even if the Tories change leader, why would they feel the need for a GE with that healthy majority?