Stephanie Flanders - Masters of Money

[El Pibe]

yep, she's definitely thinking man's crumpet (could I be any more patronising).

I do feel Marx is probably closest to it in the long term. Capitalism will lumber from crisis to crisis until a better way is found at which point history will look back on it with an unkind eye as maybe a brutally necessary step on a way to a more enlightened path, much the way we do the first century or so of industrialisation.

Today's capitalism is harsh but the unregulated markets of a more laissez faire capitalism were directly responsible for millions of deaths in Ireland and India. Today capitalisms rampant scion, globalism, still maintains slavery, indentured labour or terrible working conditins throughout the world as we outsource our production to places without all that irritating rights and regulation nonsense, with the accompanying expense.

I can't imagine what that system is, but at the core of it will be energy. If scientific progress can give us limitless supplies of cheap energy we'll have solved most of our issues at a stroke.

Oil wars? Gone.

Water wars? Gone.

Food production and supply issues? Gone.

If we can get to: Money, gone; then it's game over for capitalism.

Not a bad start. Now, how's that cold fusion getting on...another century or so?

[????]

Yup, but EP that's where the pragamatism of Keynes (or, I guess if you're a bit more freemarket inclined, which I 'probably' am ,Freedman - sadly missing from this series) makes more sense to me. I was really struck by the utopian vision of both Marx and (unconciously) Hayak kind of ignoring or brushing over the huge, horrible, unpleasantness, misery and servitude for millions over a long period that giving complete control to the state or to the market gives, even if in the end they theoretically lead to Nivarna (of which I very much doubt).

SF - of course but unless we keep economics in a ghetto I thought this was entirely fit for purpose - getting people interested in the big economic theories.

[El Pibe]

I completely agree that given the lack of any other idea, state intervention to tinker and protect both capital and labour is the only way.

The amount which it does or doesn't intefere in either or where it sits on a sliding scale between the two is of course the defining attribute of politics over the last 75 odd years.

I don't think Marx envisaged state control as a path to Nirvana, I think that lacking any better ideas he just though it preferable to uncontrolled capitalism.

In terms of actual deaths it's probably even-stevens between either choice.

We're doing the best we can I guess as we blunder through the imperfections of stoicism, greed, fear, avarice, moralism, immorality, contempt, despair and aspiration that defines the human condition in the modern world.

[????]

As a connected aside I liked good old establishment Hampstead lefty, Tariq Ali's - "well of course if Marx had lived another ten years he'd have given us the answer"...or maybe if he'd (Marx) stopped swanning around in Hampstead Cafes sorting out his daughters' piano lessons :)

[El Pibe]

yeah, that made me chuckle too. He fell victim to the classic capitalist ruse, getting a vested interest in maintaing the status quo ;-)

[Huguenot]

Not to be picky EP, but if you want to use that post again, I'd avoid "... moralism, immorality... " as the latter is a subset of the former. It's an Unnecessary Word.

That apart, I agree with both of you. Which is amazing, given my heretofore characterisation of EP as a conscientiously objecting pocket tyrant and Quids as a gunslinging small island working class neo conservative.

I'll talk to my editor.

[????]

;)

[maxxi]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Not to be picky EP, but if you want to use that

> post again, I'd avoid "... moralism, immorality...

> " as the latter is a subset of the former. It's an

> Unnecessary Word.

Possibly a subset but disagree it's unnecessary - moralists and the immoral are two separate groups - each posing a different problem in society and neither fitting into a morality we would all be happy with.

If you wanted to get pedantic on EP's ass you might have chosen greed and avarice as being an egg too many in the batter.

[Huguenot]

You may be right. That just makes it worse. It's a mess. An absolute mess.

[maxxi]

utterly

[El Pibe]

Yeah, I spotted the greed and avarice thing after posting.

I thought abut it and there's just enough nuance to be able to justify my claiming that they're different, but frankly it was a bit of a fuck up on my part.

[Moos]

There's a reasonably famous precedent, EP ;)