I'm not a racist but.....

[Earl Aelfheah]

I am not sure how much help unconscious bias training really makes. It's interesting and it may get people to reflect, but as it's looking at how things we are not conscious of may impact our actions and decisions, and about 90% or more of what we do if pretty automatic - it's probably of limited practical use when it comes to changing things. Much of the stuff that holds people back exists at a structural level imo - and that requires big change. Sometimes I think this stuff (diversity training), is displacement activity. It might be better if companies actually bit the bullet and just employed and promoted more BAME staff.

[keano77]

?... It might be better if companies actually bit the bullet and just employed and promoted more BAME staff...?

But isn?t there a potential contradiction here - sort of conscious bias? That is, isn?t positive discrimination in itself racist - you can?t break through on your own so WE will give you a helping hand.

[malumbu]

I quite liked my unconscious bias training, I think my original question is this just because of my demographic/personality or would it work on others.

So let's say if someone with views very different to me had to do it, say someone who used to head UKIP. Now they would be sceptical. But would it have a material affect?

[JohnL]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?... It might be better if companies actually bit

> the bullet and just employed and promoted more

> BAME staff...?

>

> But isn?t there a potential contradiction here -

> sort of conscious bias? That is, isn?t positive

> discrimination in itself racist - you can?t break

> through on your own so WE will give you a helping

> hand.

That isn't what it's about - according to my training - its statements of support of different types of people. It isn't about promoting people but about valuing people and allowing them to contribute. Its basic human dignity really.

[keano77]

No problem of valuing people.

But aren?t we about to introduce laws that company boards must comprise x% of this that and the other, universities must accept ... and so on.

In short, there?s a danger that social engineering could be inherently racist in itself.

[JohnL]

I don't think that comes into the unconscious bias training though (not mine anyway)

Any quotas would be a temporary thing I'd think whilst society changes as we can't afford to wait for the change to take place. It could be seen as necessary temporary discrimination to bring about change.

[seenbeen]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?... It might be better if companies actually bit

> the bullet and just employed and promoted more

> BAME staff...?

>

> But isn?t there a potential contradiction here -

> sort of conscious bias? That is, isn?t positive

> discrimination in itself racist - you can?t break

> through on your own so WE will give you a helping

> hand.

Positive discrimination has been happening in the public sector and elsewhere since at least 1989 anyway

[Sue]

I used to work in diversity.

At that time, positive discrimination was allowed in training for currently under-represented groups, so that they could compete for jobs on a more level basis.

Positive discrimination in selection procedures (eg by quotas) was illegal, and rightly so in my opinion.

Targets were legal, but not quotas.

[seenbeen]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I used to work in diversity.

>

> At that time, positive discrimination was allowed

> in training for currently under-represented

> groups, so that they could compete for jobs on a

> more level basis.

>

> Positive discrimination in selection procedures

> (eg by quotas) was illegal, and rightly so in my

> opinion.

>

> Targets were legal, but not quotas.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen...consciously or unconsciously

[TheCat]

Surely supporters of diversity targets (or indeed quotas and 'positive' discrimination) can only justify that position if they are also believe that unconscious (or conscious) bias is a significant barrier for minority groups.

Effectively they are choosing to fight bias with bias.....I don't agree with that approach (two wrongs don't make a right), but at least it makes some sort of rational sense....

[Blah Blah]

There is no alternative for redressing the impacts of bias. If we want to get to a place of true meritocracy, there have to be role models and peers for all ethnic groups to aspire to. That can be done in different ways though. For example, I would argue that one of the better ways to empower young people is through education and history. Who were the trailblazers for them? This is why something like Black History Month has positive value imo, and it is a history we all should learn, because it is a shared history in many parts. Eventually that will help feed down to a mindset of equality hopefully.

[malumbu]

seenbeen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Positive discrimination has been happening in the

> public sector and elsewhere since at least 1989

> anyway

What b'lox. Civil Service has managed to become less diverse. It's a bit like university challenge teams, with better balance of the genders and is a result of not recruiting those with more modest qualifications and ambitions, and less bean counters (ie basic entry). New entrants generally young, good schools (private and top state), Oxbridge and top Russell Group. Hence white, some Asian, but not representing black communities at the higher grades. And now lots of soul searching following BLM. Probably better in terms of trans and gay (and others grouped under all of this), and disability (but not learning difficulties I expect).

But then its tax payers money so want to attract the best talent??

Not sure about other parts of public sector, I expect cops less diverse and NHS will be more diverse.