Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[JohnL]

I notice the Queen was the closest she's ever been in 50 years to making an abusive comment

"I've just been talking to your secretary of state for health, poor man. He came for Privy Council," she told the prime minister.

"He's full of...",

At this point Boris interrupted and said

"Beans"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57584417

[Sephiroth]

Ex Taoiseach John Bruton scathing here

England is absolutely trashing its reputation for no good reason

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/john-bruton-uk-ministers-need-to-read-the-ni-protocol-they-signed-1.4613290?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true&s=09

[keano77]

Interesting article from an EU point of view

[Alan Medic]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting article from an EU point of view

More like a factual point of view. The UK Govt. wants to wriggle out of what it agreed to when they 'got Brexit done'.

Possibly their plan all along. It's a shameful place to be in for a once well respected country. Now it's just run by charlatans, the worst of all being the PM.

[Sephiroth]

don't forget the charlatans are elected Alan - so we need to look at who elects them and why

[JohnL]

Chancellor Merkel has started negotiations with six Balkan countries to join the EU

Serbia, Albania, Northern Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro and Kosovo

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-give-3-mln-covid-19-shots-western-balkans-merkel-2021-07-05/

[keano77]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Interesting article from an EU point of view

>

> More like a factual point of view. The UK Govt.

> wants to wriggle out of what it agreed to when

> they 'got Brexit done'.

> Possibly their plan all along. It's a shameful

> place to be in for a once well respected country.

> Now it's just run by charlatans, the worst of all

> being the PM.

Factual up to a point Alan. What Bruton conveniently ignores is the Protocol isn?t working. It was intended to protect the single market and peace in NI. However it is inflaming tensions there.

Interestingly, Bruton recognises in his penultimate paragraph that although it won?t appear in the Treaty, the Protocol is also partly about keeping the UK tied to EU rules as a form of control over a sovereign nation as well as a deterrent to other EU members not to consider jumping ship.

[Sephiroth]

"What Bruton conveniently ignores is the Protocol isn?t working"

he isn't ignoring it - he is saying it was never going to work, but it's the best of the 2 options given UK has decided on this form of Brexit. Uk knew this and agreed to it - it was always going to work in this way so they should never have signed it or lied to the voters about it being oven-ready

UK still has to decide what it wants, given available options. The unicorn brexit doesn't exist - the one where UK gets everything it wants

[keano77]

Well why did the EU sign it?

[Sephiroth]

The EU aren't complaining about it - they are complaining that the UK isn't fulfilling it's side of the agreement

The EU is having to deal with a spoilt child - UK doesn't want to align or be part of SM/CU so there has to be a border on land or the Irish sea - so this is the outcome - the best possible one given UK red lines

If UK has a better solution it should have presented that to the EU before signing any agreement

[keano77]

Or, the Protocol could be ripped up and we start again as the EU has never understood NI.

Isn?t the marching season around the corner?

[Sephiroth]

"he isn't ignoring it - he is saying it was never going to work, "

I should have worded this differently - it was always going to present the problems that UK govt are now claiming to to be surprised by. It was never going to work the way the UK govt seems to want to think it would

[keano77]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "he isn't ignoring it - he is saying it was never

> going to work, "

>

> I should have worded this differently - it was

> always going to present the problems that UK govt

> are now claiming to to be surprised by. It was

> never going to work the way the UK govt seems to

> want to think it would

I understood you meant that

[Sephiroth]

The EU and Ireland understand NI just fine - it is clear that the English govt (and voters) neither understand nor care about it

if you are going to rip up the protocol, you have to have a better suggestion. And you don't.

[keano77]

Equivalence

[TheCat]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well why did the EU sign it?

Maybe they didnt read it properly keano.

[Sephiroth]

5 years after Brexit, the Uk is going to have to stop barking what it wants ("EQUIVALENCE") and expecting others to comply

it's been 5 years - you've had multiple elections and leader changes that shouldn't have happened

You've had plenty of time to sit down with the EU and hammer out a deal - and you did. And the deal is playing out exactly as agreed . You said you would put processes around chilled meats (for example) after a 6 month extension. You didn't. You had chances to debate the protocol in parliament - that whole point about taking back control - that would have allowed things like these problems to be discussed. But that couldn't happen because it would show up the lie that was "oven ready"

Take some fekkin responsibility and stop a) whining and b) threatening

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Or, the Protocol could be ripped up and we start

> again as the EU has never understood NI.

>

> Isn?t the marching season around the corner?

You really are a nasty piece of work.

[keano77]

Compromise Sephiroth, compromise. It?s not that difficult. I see the French are busy re-labelling their champagne as fizzy wine for the Russian market. Principles are expendable if people are going to lose money.

[Sephiroth]

"principles are expendable if people are going to lose money."

if that were a universal truth, we would see UK doing a lot more compromising of its' "principles" and would be aligning with SM/CU

[keano77]

Well I don?t know about the philosophical truth of the matter but on a practical level there?s a bigger world out there than the EU Sephiroth

Brexit: Exporting my fish to China is easier than to France

A Scottish fisherman says it's "cheaper and quicker" to export his shellfish to Asia than it is to France under post-Brexit rules.

Because the UK is out of the single market, British fish exports to Europe are now subject to new customs and veterinary checks.

Jamie McMillan says this means three hours of paperwork every morning to get his shellfish to the EU. He told BBC Panorama he had turned to Asian markets to keep his business afloat and save his employees' jobs

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57696461

[Sephiroth]

what point are you making there keano - none of it sounds like a win for UK

[keano77]

Surely it is self-evident? World trade does not revolve around the EU. They are just a bit player in the grand scheme of things.

The world is your oyster

[Sephiroth]

sure - and geography and gravity doesn't matter - another Brexiter myth

on and on it goes

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 5 years after Brexit, the Uk is going to have to

> stop barking what it wants ("EQUIVALENCE") and

> expecting others to comply

>

> it's been 5 years - you've had multiple elections

> and leader changes that shouldn't have happened

>

> You've had plenty of time to sit down with the EU

> and hammer out a deal - and you did. And the deal

> is playing out exactly as agreed . You said you

> would put processes around chilled meats (for

> example) after a 6 month extension. You didn't.

> You had chances to debate the protocol in

> parliament - that whole point about taking back

> control - that would have allowed things like

> these problems to be discussed. But that couldn't

> happen because it would show up the lie that was

> "oven ready"

>

> Take some fekkin responsibility and stop a)

> whining and b) threatening

Seph...you continue to want to look backwards with all this. People from all sides seem to agree that the NI protocol is not working. Now whether that's because it was poorly designed or poorly understood is really a moot point now isnt it?

So surely just banging on that it was a mistake to sign it it, and the UK should just blindly 'honour the contract' is not particularly pragmatic is it?

Things change, mistakes are made. This isn't a wildly unusual situation - i.e. a contract is not working in the way one or both parties had hoped - If every contract worked in practice in exactly the way that it was intended at the time of signing then we wouldn't need courts or lawyers, or an entire legal infrastructure really. And more specifically, there is the Article 16, which was clearly included in anticipation that it might not work for the relevant parties....which is what seems to have transpired.

There are of course other options, and possible alternatives, that will require compromise on both sides of course....but the emotive nature of this debate sees plenty of shouting about how there is no alternative....I dont really buy that....