Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Sephiroth]

"People from all sides seem to agree that the NI protocol is not working"

Not strictly true

"ow whether that's because it was poorly designed or poorly understood is really a moot point now isnt it? "

massively incorrect - it was signed by a government that lied about it - this is how they operate and any "new" negotiation will be with people that are not trusted

This is the whole point - from the referendum to this protocol - the british govt has flat out lied/not cared/brushed aside all concerns

if we have to look forward we have to accepts lessons learned - and the lesson is that this govt lies to its negotiating partners, it's voters and itself

Any new negotiation is going to rely on understanding the complexities, and fulfilling it's promises. This govt will do neither

[Sephiroth]

"Things change, mistakes are made. "

What has changed? What mistakes were made?

for example - would any new agreement be put in front of parliament and debated properly? or would Brexiters shout everyone down and say "people don't want to talk about this anymore?"

will any new deal require support of British people? another election anyone? Another referendum?

when these shysters claim any new deal is "a great deal" how do we believe them based on past record?

How do we believe them? And how does EU believe them?

UK govt has no intention of honouring any deal with EU - it wants problems to point the finger and blame them for the mess that Brexit is causing - it's that simple.

[Sephiroth]

and in the meantime, businesses hit the wall, HGV drivers are told to drive longer hours, hospitality is shy of workers - slow bleed of economy (and that's brexit itself - nowt to do with NI)

[Sephiroth]

I don?t think you know who John Bruton even is

A more Anglophile, pro British Irish politician you couldn?t find. He is considered by many Irish people to be effectively British

If he has written such a brutal article, brits Should sit up and take notice.

For once in last five years listen to what people are saying and warning about.

Enough of the shrugging, hand waving, patronising.

This isn?t some agreement that can easily be amended. People have warned about this for years. Govt legal advisers would have been all over this. But we know how they have been treated by this govt and brexiteers

This is one of the most delicate and costly situations possible - you don?t get to gaslight people and shrug and say ?stop living in the past?. This was known - English arrogance has got us here

But if you want to look forward - you have to decide this are going to align with eu rules.

If not you have to decide where border goes and how it works.

And you can?t

[keano77]

Posted by Sephiroth Today, 06:28PM

I don?t think you know who John Bruton even is...

Let me guess - he gets, or will get, a big fat EU pension and writes pro-EU articles?

Am I warm?

[Sephiroth]

Oh the ignorance

[malumbu]

Freeing ourselves of the 'EU shackles" can go either way, we can have tougher controls eg on environmental protection, or weaker when we feel that this is hampering the UK's fiscal interests, such as worker's rights, health and safety, and the like. Clearly some EU law is a bit barmy, but many of the so called issues were urban myths.

This is all blindingly obvious, and plenty has already been posted on the subject.

It interests me about all the new investment, in particular motor manufacturing, where tax payers money is used to lure in overseas investment such as Nissan. Of course state aid is more Labour's bag than traditional Tories.

Oh well, history will tell, but not sure whether I will still be around for this.

[JohnL]

The urban myths were mostly invented by this journalist called Boris Johnson.

[Sephiroth]

but UK has to stop "not listening to experts", and has to start listening to the realities of the path it has chosen

It cannot continue to ignore everyone and then just say "this isn't my Brexit!"

[JohnL]

I know a bit of French and no German but sometimes you don't have to ...

https://www.blaetter.de/ausgabe/2021/juli/die-politik-der-luege

[JohnL]

Boris has twigged that saying "it's coming home" is annoying the other countries so he's asked ministers not to say it..

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/leaked-email-shows-ministers-being-urged-not-to-say-its-coming-home

[TheCat]

As foreigner, I'll agree that the 'it's coming home' thing is definitely irritating...

[diable rouge]

Frank Skinner on the Last Leg last night said that ''It's coming home'' was a reference to football originating in England. What he's actually referring to is the setting-up of modern-day football with an official Association and rules therein, which England was the first to do, not the invention of the game itself. A long time ago I read that claim went to China.

I'm pretty sure I heard someone in the crowd at Wimbledon shout that tennis was coming home after Barty's win...:)

[JohnL]

I wonder who told Boris that some countries don't like it - and if he wants a 2030 world cup he has to be nice.

Wasn't Merkel around not long ago.

[KidKruger]

As a citizen, I'll agree that the 'its coming home' thing is fecking irritating...

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As foreigner, I'll agree that the 'it's coming

> home' thing is definitely irritating...

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm pretty sure I heard someone in the crowd at

> Wimbledon shout that tennis was coming home after

> Barty's win...:)

many animate and inanimate objects had it suggested they are "coming 'ome" this week.

[alex_b]

As a citizen I find it deeply weird. It?s a 25 year old song which only serves to remind everyone how long we?ve underperformed for. Still could be worse, it could have been ?Vindaloo? being trotted out instead.

[diable rouge]

I think the song highlighting England's 'underferformance' is its' redeeming quality.

It also conveys hope...''30 years of hurt, never stopped me dreaming''...the one thing that all football fans share from national to non-league level, that eternal hope that this time their team will do well...

[KidKruger]

Wow, got me quite choked-up there, DR !! 🤣🤣😭😭😭😭😭

[diable rouge]

I'm not a big fan of the song, but I do get why it's popular and caught on.

I could understand people not liking it if it was snarling, crowing, jingoistic etc, but it's the Lightening Seeds FFS!... :)

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the song highlighting England's

> 'underferformance' is its' redeeming quality.

> It also conveys hope...''30 years of hurt, never

> stopped me dreaming''...the one thing that all

> football fans share from national to non-league

> level, that eternal hope that this time their team

> will do well...

But it's been hijacked a bit.

If they'd been allowed to play live before the match i wonder how they would have played it - bombastic or as it was originally. But UEFA banned it.

[alex_b]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the song highlighting England's

> 'underferformance' is its' redeeming quality.

> It also conveys hope...''30 years of hurt, never

> stopped me dreaming''...the one thing that all

> football fans share from national to non-league

> level, that eternal hope that this time their team

> will do well...

Oh I agree I think that spirit was great when it was new, but going from "30 years of hurt" to "55 years of hurt" does rather take the shine off.

As JohnL implies it's the the shift to a very bombastic "it's coming home" away from the hopeful "never stopped us dreaming" original irks me.

[JohnL]

Looks like Leicester Square's been trashed.

Not sure if the Police are going to let it go or get aggressive today.

[Spartacus]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like Leicester Square's been trashed.

>

> Not sure if the Police are going to let it go or

> get aggressive today.

If only London had water cannons to quell the trouble ...

[JohnL]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Looks like Leicester Square's been trashed.

> >

> > Not sure if the Police are going to let it go

> or

> > get aggressive today.

>

> If only London had water cannons to quell the

> trouble ...

Boris bright them, never used, Sadiq sold them I think - not sure why (someone tell me against EU rules:) )