Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Sephiroth]

Lesser degrees Keano. Lesser degrees. By some margin. Go visit other EU countries.

Heck, go visit even Northern Ireland - a uk country (for now). They just aren?t affected in anything like the same way

As for rah?s comments about inflation it was very, very explicitly about what is going to hit this country when it imposes its own barriers (if it does - it isn?t ready, despite years of Brexit. And it can?t afford to)

[TheCat]

What was that about going to any lengths to avoid admitting a mistake or making a concession?.....

[Sephiroth]

Go on catty. Don?t be so obtuse. You think you have a point, you don?t, but if you allude to one it sounds like you do

[TheCat]

Exactly why I'm not interested anymore...before you've even heard an alternative argument, you've concluded I don't have a point....as you have with every point that's ever been made on this thread which doesn't paint brexit in the most negative light possible. There's absolutley zero point trying to make a serious argument on this issue with you on this thread. Not becuase there aren't points to be made, but becuase you don't wish to hear them.

Hence, I now prefer my occasional taunting smarminess....

[Sephiroth]

How extremely convenient.

I said you don?t have a point - because you didn?t make one. If I?m wrong, make your point and I?ll apologise

[Sephiroth]

When have I been wrong about the ?benefits? of Brexit?

I remember you claiming early vaccine wins and me pointing out they weren?t Brexit wins - and here we are in September and it doesn?t feel like any win, Brexit-related or not, does it?

Am I missing all these other wins?

I remember you complaining about the NIP despite being told it was shit by people like me and the govt saying ?hush now. We?ve debated this long enough? and yay we won 80 seat majority. Was I wrong then too?

5 years it?s been. No wins. I think being critical of Brexit is correct. But apparently there are many counter examples

[TheCat]

I'm 100percent sure you indeed only remember the times when you were right.

That's the point mate.

Anyway...I'm now guilty of playing the man, which I don't really like at all. My apols. But if you can't look back over 5 years of threads and find at least a handful of sound arguments which might not support the 'brexit is totally and utterly bad' view...then me making a couple of points now isn't really going to change that is it?

Go well.

[Sephiroth]

Fair play Cat

But it isn?t about me is it?

5 years of Brexit has yielded nothing but problems. You (or anyone) can try and pan for gold but it?s grim pickings. And it?s going to get worse

That?s not my fault. So I don?t mind you having a pop at me personally. But no, there are no solid ?Brexit is going well? arguments. We argue when people try - and by people there aren?t many. There are the people you don?t really want to associate yourself with (the uncle festers and the Roy Keane of the forum)

And then there?s you, the sensible one. Which is why I argue with you

But I don?t think you can point to any unalloyed wins. And the losses are mounting

[wordsworth]

Why don't you two go out for a good 'ol drink up and be done with it?

[keano77]

Don?t be naughty Wordsworth

Cat will know how to crack a tinnie or two. But the thought of europhile Sephiroth with some effete concoction with an umbrella and cherry on top doesn?t bear thinking about.

[Alan Medic]

The cocktail........a UK invention

"The evolution of the cocktail

Nobody is exactly sure when the first ?true? cocktail was created, but by the 1860s the drinks using this name usually included some form of liqueur. Bartenders were introduced to the concept officially in 1862, with the publication of How to Mix Drinks by ?Professor? Jerry Thomas, which included ten recipes for ?cocktails?, differentiated from the other drinks in the manual by the introduction of bitters. This charismatic American author and bartender helped to solidify the cocktail?s reputation as an overwhelmingly US-based invention, with a sophistication unmatched by early UK variants. However, the principles behind the cocktail originate far earlier, with some considering London punch-house proprietor James Ashley, who mastered his craft between 1731-1776, as the first to pioneer the mixology which led to the creation of the first ever cocktail."

[Sephiroth]

the two possibilities which present themselves from keano's post

1) he is serious

2) he is joking

both are too horrific to dwell on

[Spartacus]

Alan

Reading that, whilst fascinating, reminded me of the comedy series "goodness gracious me" where the father kept on saying "that's Indian, the British stole it from us" 😂

[Sephiroth]

https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/north-wales-bubble-firm-used-21397832

somehow this is all ok?

[keano77]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/nort

> h-wales-bubble-firm-used-21397832

>

> somehow this is all ok?

No it?s not. The EU should be ashamed of itself

[Sephiroth]

FFS

[Earl Aelfheah]

Making it more difficult to trade with our neighbours is so obviously a bad idea economically. Making it more difficult for people to travel, live and work in other countries is so obviously a bad idea culturally. It's such a sad, insular little project.

[Sephiroth]

not forgetting that Govt insisted on pressing ahead middle of a pandemic, when it had a chance to extend transition period

Never mind that the govt/leave lied throughout years saying there would be no downside when everyone else was saying "no, this is what it means" and they then say we were spreading lies/fear

no, apparently all of this was IMPOSED on the UK - not voluntarily, naively and proudly undertaken by UK, but the "EU should be ashamed of itself"

The levels of delusions are still off the charts (wether keano is trolling or not)

[Sephiroth]

Normal country

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/absolute-bedlam-as-hundreds-turn-up-for-free-raspberries-after-yorkshire-farm-cancels-harvest-because-of-worker-shortage-3367886

[malumbu]

As much as I am on your side is it not time to let it go?

There are benefits - I expect predominantly from subsidising markets, state aid and the like. Aimed at overseas investment rather than the late 70s of propping up failing British industry. Throwing money at things was hardly a Tory thing to do but times have changed.

Yes the decision to leave was daft if we look at the wider benefits of being in the EU, but I don't have a time machine.

(Funnily I was comparing our wider economy with the sell out by football to overseas investors - many fans consider it is wonderful but do we want our country to be a plaything of countries and corporations with silly amounts of money to spend?)

[Sephiroth]

Nope. It is so bad and unsustainable an idea it can?t be let go

If Frost won?t let it go (having negotiated the deal and still wanging on about how bad it is today) why would I or anyone let it go

Be clear. There is only pain ahead before we realign (if not rejoin even further)

So the sooner everyone snaps out of this ?ah well? mode and gets real, me going on about it is least I?d anyone?s problems.

Everyone continues to understate just how bad the problems are. Tories pretending to be 70s labour is no substitute for peace and stability in Northern Ireland for example.

This whole situation is simply not real and not sustainable.

[Sephiroth]

And no one needs a time machine.

Just need the country to accept alignment with single market and customs union (or as close as practicable) whilst remaining outside Eu.

But this constant antagonistic attitude towards closest trading partners , whilst getting elected On getting Brexit done is just not going to work. And people need to get vocal about it. Because this apathy in the face of this is genuinely pathetic

[TheCat]

When even I give the game away....I think mal might be right....

Let's separate the decision, with the subsequent management. They are not one and the same as much as you say they are. I.e. a sensible govt would issue simple working visas to fill short term gaps. While still encouraging a transition to more local labour investment.....not just blanket 'work it out'. That's not brexit's fault, that's the govt fault.

[TheCat]

The whole thing has been fetishism to the nth degree. Yes it's a big deal. But not to the extent it now dominates our collective psyche.

I mean I could post this article and bang on about how you were lied to. But what a waste of time....

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/six-times-remainers-denied-an-eu-army-would-happen

Please don't comment on this. I couldn't care less....just an example of how petty the whole thing has become.....

[Sephiroth]

"hat's not brexit's fault, that's the govt fault."

Ah the old "it's not communism at fault..." line

and where did we get this government from? Was it a cruel joke? Nope - it's because brexiters demand brexit, any brexit must happen. Don't look at the detail - just get it done. Get rid of Cameron get rid of May - just get it done!!! F*** other countries and any impact on them - just lie and get it done. renege on the deal later!!!

And that's why we have this bunch of jokers - and anytime we might end up lucky and get a better more sensible govt? The same lunatics from The Mail, the Tory Party, The Lexiteers and the Keanos/uncleglens of this parish will scream and shout betrayal

this gentleman's brexit you have in your head doesn't exist - and if it did it wouldn't have won any referendum