The Disunited Kingdom

[TheCat]

Sturgeon stoking the fires of division her EU flag stunt as well this week...

[Nigello]

A disunited SNP, more like? We in teh south don't really get what is going on up there from anything other than a London broadsheet or tabloid, or even the BBC and ITN - it is broadbrush when it comes to the regions/nations (probably because time is short on a bulletin and being general appeals to most people, so not knocking them). The nationalists/separatists/SNP/Scottish National Party (different people call them different things) are very popular but there is a large proportion of people who are fed up of them, especially the leadership. I hold no side but just ask that people educate themselves more on the positives and negatives of any nationalist party, even if it goes against what you believe. Next week should bring more attention to the workings of the SNP, if not its policies.

[JohnL]

When/If Scotland leaves maybe it will end up with new political parties (maybe those under the SNP banner now).

[diable rouge]

Nigello Wrote:

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> Next week should bring more attention to the workings

> of the SNP, if not its policies.

Spoke to a Scottish friend last night, they think the SNP is more than capable of shooting itself in the foot e.g the Salmond issue, but for many voting SNP is simply a conduit to achieve independence, they don't feel any allegiance to then run with the SNP if it's achieved, again strong similarities with England and Brexit i.e non-Tory voters in England voting for the Tories to 'get Brexit done'...

[JohnL]

Salmond's allegations have been redacted after concerns by the Scottish Crown Office and some (mainly the Spectator) are calling conspiracy hinting that Sturgeon was involved in some sort of dirty tricks operation.

Sturgeon denies having any involvement and accuses the accusers of being conspiracy theorists.

It's all murky up there in Scotland and that's not just the weather.

[TheCat]

If Sturgeon is forced to resign in the near future, will it take the wind out of the sails of the independence movement, at least for the near term?

Clearly the SNP and independence issue is not goin got go away, but Sturgeon is clearly a formidable political and the face of the independence movement...

[JohnL]

I'd guess Ian Blackford the Westminister head of the SNP would take over ? Would be no change in policy - may even be a harder line.

She's giving evidence now - I can't see her resigning. No-one in the UK government resigns anymore whatever the accusations, why should she ?

[Seabag]

What is a resigning matter anymore, apart from underage sex?

I?m struggling to think of anything.

Lying to the Queen?

Lying to the country?

Just farking lying full stop?

Nope, none of the above. Seems they all make you fit for government these days.

[JohnL]

Neall Patterson making this point today.

Why should Sturgeon resign when nobody else does for worse.

[JohnL]

Sajid Javid resigned when he was told to replace all of his advisors and submit to Dom Cummings - thats the last one I can remember.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/13/sajid-javid-resigns-as-chancellor-amid-boris-johnson-reshuffle

[diable rouge]

It's not only the Scots who are revolting... https://www.itv.com/news/2021-03-04/is-the-united-kingdom-on-the-brink-of-a-break-up

[malumbu]

It's a sad state of affairs where lying/misleading is common practice, it wasn't so long ago that we expected integrity from our lords and masters. But now (Trump/Johnson) it no longer seems to matter to many of the electorate. Not that others didn't tell fibs, massage the truth etc but endemic now.

[TheCat]

Very true about the general public's lack of interest in lies from our leader.....but looking more broadly than just politics, is it because society at large has too many versions of what 'truth' is? So it all starts to become a bit meaningless?

The reason I raise this...I was skimming an article today about the upcoming Meghan Markle/Harry interview with Oprah....and in one of the clips pre-released of the inteview, Oprah asks Meghan ?How do you feel about the palace hearing you speak your truth today??...YOUR truth?...WTF does that mean? It used to be something was either true or false....sure, we can talk about peoples 'perceptions' or 'interpretation' of events....but YOUR truth?

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> It's not only the Scots who are revolting...

> https://www.itv.com/news/2021-03-04/is-the-united-

> kingdom-on-the-brink-of-a-break-up

Wales will follow Scotland to an extent - but there is a bit of a campaign at the moment (yes cymru)

https://www.yes.cymru/

[JohnL]

Oh Boris - Noooo You've misled parliament again. Are you going to resign ?

https://goodlawproject.org/update/johnson-misled-parliament/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social%20media&utm_campaign=bj%20uc%200503%20tw

[TheCat]

well played JohnL, well played.....not much retort to that (on this topic at least!)

[Spartacus]

BBC News - Alex Salmond inquiry says Nicola Sturgeon misled committee

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56451170

Should she stay or should she go now?

If she go's, there will be trouble

And if she stays it will be double

So come on Nicola and let me know

[JohnL]

No sign of her resigning yet.

I can't help thinking of the affair in Wales (Carl Sargeant killing himself and Carwyn Jones resigning "at the end of the year"). That never really had the same level of media coverage in England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sargeant

[JohnL]

Ahhh Sky News update. The leaked (and it is only leaked) report says she misled parliament, the guidelines say you should resign if you KNOWINGLY mislead parliament.

The fix is in :)

Although of course nobody resigns over misleading anybody about anything these days - it's just how politics works..

[TheCat]

Its notable how the decline in objective truth and need for integrity is perpetuated by tribes of ALL political colours. It seems in both mainstream and social media that tribalism generally trumps the need to avoid outrageous hypocrisy for many people these days....

For those who are typically pro-brexit/pro-tory (the two are of course not one and the same, but im generalising), they are accepting/silent on Boris's lies/inaccurate statements/misleading; but insistent that Nicola must go.

For those who are typically anti-brexit/anti-tory (so a generalization of many posters on the EDF perhaps?!), there's a general 'whataboutery'; glossing over the Nicola lies/inaccurate statements/misleading; and pointing the finger at Boris, saying well of he doesn't go, then why should she..?

The outcome is a general degrading of a requirement for the truth, and unfort pointing the finger at the 'other side' misses the point and perpetuates the decline...we are all complicit in this race to the bottom unfortunately....

[alex_b]

I haven?t read the leaked report but if it is as described then yes she should resign. Of course I recognise I don?t have a dog in the fight and so it?s easy for me to say that. For me it?s a genuine conundrum, I think the pro-Brexit/pro-Tory side have been successful by dispensing with many democratic norms so I can see the temptation for my side of the argument to do the same. On the other hand you can?t get a healthy, liberal society through populism and norm breaking, so better to try to hold the line and hope that it starts resonating with the public.

Fundamentally the last 5-10 years in the UK and US have shown that the general public don?t place much value on honesty in politics and until that changes the behaviour of politicians won?t change either.

[DuncanW]

Cat,

I don't think the lies that Boris Johnson has told and those that Nicoloa Sturgeon has been accused of are on anything like the same scale.

Boris's lies have been fundamental whoppers. He has been dismissed from two journalism jobs for lying, and once as a shadow mininister. He has told inmumerable bare-faced lies whilst campaigning and in office, the most famous being the ?350M for the NHS. It is clear that he is deceitful in his personal life too - and indeed this has crossed over into his political life as when he was sacked by Michael Howard.

The accusations against Nicola Sturgeon seem to be of a more technical nature. Did she know about the allegations (now legally disproven) against Alec Salmond on Mar 29th or April 2nd - was a phone call between the two recorded as government or party business, etc.

FYI - I would fall into the Labour/Remain camp - but on that basis, have no particular candle for SNP politicians - I would also like the UK to remain intact, but at this stage - who can blame them for wanting to go their own way?

[JohnL]

Pritti Patel has been accused of misleading parliament again but the Pritster seems to never come unstuck. It seems like a weekly occurrence for her :) )

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/priti-patel-barracks-asylum-seekers-yvette-cooper-b1815973.html

[Seabag]

If Johnson resigns over his lies and misleading Parliament, then I?m sure Nicola Sturgeon will too.

I mean, she?s a fundamentally decent person, unlike Johnson, who?s always waiting to be caught out.

[JohnL]

Johnson just grins like a little boy when he lies - and people think it's endearing.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/21/boris-johnson-lies-marcus-rashford-prime-minister