Hartlepool & (latterly) North Shropshire

[Sephiroth]

I'm seeing a lot of "now loads of people believe Cummings all of a sudden" type comments - but I don't think it's that simple - he remains as shifty and shady as ever. But he was in the room and a driving force behind much of the last 5 years - and it remains notable that the targets of his accusations have avoided explicitly refuting what he says

But let's stick with him being an unreliable narrator - because he is.

The problem is, the main person he is accusing is also an unreliable narrator - with a proven history of being so. SO either Cummings is lying, or Johnson is lying

And in THAT very specific calculation I'm not inclined to believe Johnson above Cummings

I don't think this is going to topple Johnson by itself - but it's easy to imagine death rising again and another lockdown because of the India variant despite the clear early evidence about the variant and this becoming a hot topic all over again

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don?t know, rah

>

> In time, I think yesterday will be seen as

> beginning of the end for Johnson

Gawd I hope so

[????]

I thought it was last Christmas Max Seriph? And that was the whole government not just Johnson. Seriously out in the real world people think politicians across the board are liars, shits and frauds, and, if they?ve heard of Cummings, they?ve been told by the guardianustas that he?s an awful terrible man and a liar to boot, until yesterday when he?s now a deliverer of truth and integrity.

Johnson will still PM after the next election I reckon.

[Sephiroth]

Yep - I did say Johnson wouldn't last the year. And the polls (and many people) are happy to laugh at me

But I still think it's going to end badly, and more quickly than most think.

[Sephiroth]

" they?ve been told by the guardianustas that he?s an awful terrible man and a liar to boot, until yesterday when he?s now a deliverer of truth and integrity. "

That is literally the opposite point to what I've tried to make

No claims of being a deliverer of truth and integrity - he remains as shifty as ever. But Johnson is the PM is a proven liar and looks to be making the same mistake he has made several times with this virus.

No-one has to believe Cummings specifically - but putting aside all bias, guardinaista put downs and all the rest of it - do you genuinely think the core assertions made yesterday are untrue?

[????]

No. But that?s not my point. My point is your confusing wishful thinking and, there is no better word for it, bubble thinking, in thinking this government and Johnson are on the verge of collapse, as you and many others have been since the pandemic began, it?s not. This isn?t any support for Johnson or the Tories just a huge reality check that way too many on the left need. It?s why election after election you keep scratching your heads and saying ?how the fuck did that happen??

[Sephiroth]

I don't think it's just "people on the left" scratching their heads about this government tbh

[Earl Aelfheah]

The government seem unassailable (bizarrely to me, but there you go). It would be a mistake however to think that things can't very quickly change in politics.

It's a weird time. At the moment people want to give the government the benefit of the doubt as we're in the middle of a pandemic. Once we come out the other side things might change, but who really knows.

I feel like it's more Labour losing at the moment than Johnson winning.

[Alan Medic]

Well this sorts Cummings out...

[????]

I agree rah, but Labour needs to drop the ?your country is awful, you people are scum vote Labour? (copyright Newsthump) and more than 10 minutes on any even vaguely left wing bit of social media soon exposes that bit of satire as very close to the mark.

[Sephiroth]

I don't think the Labour Party is promoting any such message

However, I agree that it wouldn't take much searching to find parts of left-leaning social media users to find messages like that

But then again - "your country is awful/has gone to the dogs/a lot of scum out there" is pretty much the message promoted by most papers year after year. I don't think it's a left wing thing at all

[diable rouge]

During the Hartlepool by-election, Labour decked out it's HQ in Union Jacks nd put the flag of St George on leaflets. Instead of apeing the Tories flag-waving plastic patriotism, they should be having a grown-up conversation that patriotism is more about doing what's best for a country and it's people as a whole. There was nothing patriotic in the Tories trying to stop free school meals, and Labour should be ramming home issues like that.

Likewise the Brexit deal the Tories negotiated, where's the patriotism in a deal which has economically separated NI from the rest of the UK, as well as threatening the Union with Scotland?

Starmer seems scared to mention Brexit. It is possible to criticise the Tories Brexit deal without criticising Brexit per se...

[????]

Most Labour activists are fine with the flag, as long as its Palestinian

[Sephiroth]

Nearly a week later and that last post (and the general volley of ill-tempered posts that day from author) still amazes me

[????]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think that?s wishful thinking straight out of

> your echo chamber there RD. I haven?t heard anyone

> whose not on Twitter, the majority of us, say that

> much about this. I think it?s a media and Twitter

> frenzy and Mr Teflon will survive it.

I thought it was last Christmas Max Seriph? And that was the whole government not just Johnson. Seriously out in the real world people think politicians across the board are liars, shits and frauds, and, if they?ve heard of Cummings, they?ve been told by the guardianustas that he?s an awful terrible man and a liar to boot, until yesterday when he?s now a deliverer of truth and integrity.

Johnson will still PM after the next election I reckon.

No. But that?s not my point. My point is your confusing wishful thinking and, there is no better word for it, bubble thinking, in thinking this government and Johnson are on the verge of collapse, as you and many others have been since the pandemic began, it?s not. This isn?t any support for Johnson or the Tories just a huge reality check that way too many on the left need. It?s why election after election you keep scratching your heads and saying ?how the @#$%& did that happen??

I agree rah, but Labour needs to drop the ?your country is awful, you people are scum vote Labour? (copyright Newsthump) and more than 10 minutes on any even vaguely left wing bit of social media soon exposes that bit of satire as very close to the mark.

Most Labour activists are fine with the flag, as long as its Palestinian

Can you point out which bit of the above, my entire output from 'that day', is ill tempered please?

[????]

Or is ill tempered just not having the same opinion as you? Because I'm scratching my head here.

[????]

Just one bit that's ill-tempered?

[????]

...cos i'm calling bullshit

[Sephiroth]

I love this thread right now

[malumbu]

Hartlepool was a wrong answer in a repeat of Pointless the other day. Apparently they were no longer in the league at that point. But I've checked, and they are back again following last season's play offs. I doubt if it is anything to do with politics.

They of course used to be called Hartlepools, following a merger of two of the teams in the area (well one took on the assets of a failed club).

A young Brian Clough was once their manager.

And of course the area is famous for the monkey that was hung, which was thought to be a Frenchman.

[Sephiroth]

Nice try

[TheCat]

North Shropshire....the beginning of the end? The middle of the end? Or the end of the end?

Surely this, combined with a greater number of rebels in key votes than his parliamentary majority means it's closer to the end for BJ than it was yesterday..

[Sephiroth]

Objectively, even allowing for the astonishing swing/historical significance of the vote etc, it is JUST a by-election

(albeit a self-inflicted one)

Governments have suffered these before and gone on to win

However - given my posts earlier in this thread, I clearly think it's the moment when all the hot air, boosterism, lies, whatever you want to call them, have been called out and things could happen very quickly now

Maybe Christmas break will be in Johnson's favour. But the coalition that got him here is unlikely to relish limping on for another 2 years

[jazzer]

Have to agree, day by day it looks worse for Boris, a loss of an almost 23,000 majority is a Huge loss. So I suspect that unless BJ "can pull a rabbit out of the hat" it's looking darker and blear than it has for a very long time.

[diable rouge]

When the Owen Patterson scandal broke, I believe it gained a lot of 'cut-through' because the Tories couldn't tag Brexit onto the scandal. Likewise the latest Partygate scandals.

For a while, Brexit has been the Tories silver bullet, aided and abetted by Remain friendly parties not co-operating.

What's eye-opening about this result is that NS is VERY Brexity, yet the Tories were unable to tap into that sentiment anymore.

Once you take away Brexit, the Tories, and Johnson in particular, flounder...