Southwark schools in financial difficulty - Dog Kennel Hill?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

The butchering of the state's ability to administer education is a feature of academies, not a bug.

[motorbird83]

Existing schools converting to academy status doesn't add any new places in the system and academies don't typically change their admission numbers as that's not really the point of converting.

School rolls are falling in London because of Brexit, covid and lower birth rates which started falling in 2012. None of this is related to the academy programme. The drop in pupil numbers is affecting both LA schools and academies with the same negative consequences for both.

Part of the process of a brand new school getting approval to open (which will add new school places) is the local authority providing an impact assessment on existing schools. Its designed to prevent unnecessary places being created that would have negative financial impacts on existing schools.

Harris Primary ED and the Charter ED shouldn't have been approved as it was already clear that the drop in the birthrate from 2012 onwards among other things meant long term the schools wouldn't be needed in this location based on Southwark's initial forecasting. However, decision making was swayed by a political pressure campaign led by local parents and councillors insisting that the demographic forecasts were wrong and action needed to be taken etc.

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes Penguin, I?m sensing a theme.

>

> Motorbird so DfE approve schools opening but after

> that don?t control their intake? Or do they

> technically have the power but just don?t exercise

> it in practice?

>

> I?m getting boring now but I can?t get my head

> around LAs having to try and manage pupil places

> without having any control over academy intakes.

> Is this because the initial Labour policy was that

> failing schools could academise and it would only

> be a small proportion that probably weren?t

> super-attractive? And then (I have been googling),

> the coalition govt introduced converter academies

> so better schools / everyone could convert, and

> this current problem is an unintended consequence?

[motorbird83]

I should clarify, I'm not defending academies in general (they have their pros and cons) but in this instance it doesn't have much to do with the problem being discussed.

[legalalien]

Just watching cabinet meeting from Tuesday where they discuss the pupil planning report. From about 1:12 onward. Very sober discussion, including the fact that the council?s accounts haven?t provisioned for bailing out/ costs of closing failing schools. Costs like this reduce the fund available to remaining schools - the longer (economically) failing schools are allowed to continue the worse the picture overall.

Some mention about how this relates to planning / regeneration - KW suggesting that it?s all down to benefit caps forcing families out of London. (Nothing to do with the fact that the problem is around devt like Elephant. Hmm. Other cabinet members didn?t seem very convinced tbh). Watch the video?.

ETA the minutes have now been posted and include a resolution that ?a report be brought back to cabinet within six months on the extent to which changes in the benefit system have led to a reduction in the number of school-aged children in the borough; working if possible with other boroughs and the regional schools officer.?

There was nothing in the underlying report about the benefit system. Why wouldn?t they ask for a report on something neutral like ?the reasons why there has been a reduction??? These cabinet meetings really are a piece of political theatre.

[Nigello]

What costs are likely to be paid if a school is made to close? Do they compensate staff for wages, etc?

[legalalien]

Not sure. There's a report on the St Johns school closure earlier this year that seems to set out the process

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s99896/Report%20St.%20Johns%20Walworth%20Church%20of%20England%20primary%20school

[Penguin68]

What costs are likely to be paid if a school is made to close? Do they compensate staff for wages, etc?

I am assuming that initially Southwark would look to place staff in schools which would be taking any displaced pupils from the closure, but otherwise staff would be able to call on statutory redundancy payments (or better if the unions can negotiate that) - like any failed business; but I'm guessing with some more certainty of payment. As an employer with multiple (educational) 'business' sites, Southwark would probably move through voluntary to compulsory redundancy, assuming that they would be able to place a number of teachers and support staff in other roles within the borough. Normal employment legislation would offer staff some certainties as to 'the worst' that could happen.

I would also assume that the borough, if it did actually close schools, would aim to sell the sites to recoup some losses.

[legalalien]

Interesting about the sites. There was some mention at the scrutiny committee meeting about trying to keep any sites for community use/ so they?re potentially still there in case of future uptick in demand, but given the housing situation I?d imagine there?s a strong case for converting to housing. Although possibly closing a school and then having developers create expensive apartments (including some affordable housing commitment no doubt) wouldn?t be a very good look. Still theoretical at this stage as regards individual schools of course but there did seem to be a sense of inevitability that some primary schools would end up closing.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What costs are likely to be paid if a school is

> made to close? Do they compensate staff for wages,

> etc?

In the event of a closure, there will likely be redundancies. I would imagine that most teachers will have a relatively generous, occupational severance scheme. There may also be 'actuarial costs' owed to the pension schemes.

[Penguin68]

There has always been a regular fluctuation in school place demand (since the post-war baby boomers gave a population blip) - but currently (and outwith some immigration issues) birth-rates are well below stable replacement rates in much of Europe, and especially the UK. And that's without population movement around the country. So this is probably a nettle that can't avoid being grasped. Of course, one 'solution' would be to use the spare capacity to radically reduce class sizes - on the assumption (still to be proven) that this will increase achievement which would possibly lead to an economic upturn (over time) which would pay back the additional costs per pupil head (again, over quite a considerable time).

[legalalien]

Just out of interest (not to make any particular point), what have class sizes been in England historically? I think they are around 30 now? I was educated overseas and our standard class size was 30-32 (one teacher per class - at least for primary and core secondary subjects), this was taken as a given and not really debated much / seemed to work OK. Have class sizes here increased over the years or have they also always been around this mark? (Obvs might be smaller in more remote spots, so thinking about maximums in populated areas)?

[motorbird83]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What costs are likely to be paid if a school is

> made to close? Do they compensate staff for wages,

> etc?

Redundancy and buying new uniforms for the children allocated to new schools etc.

However, its more affordable than running the schools at a major loss. They will be closing / margining a number of schools over the next 12 months. Its truly a financial crisis for the borough so radical action is being undertaken.

[motorbird83]

30 is the max allowed for years R through year 2. Classes can be larger in later primary but its not usual.

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just out of interest (not to make any particular

> point), what have class sizes been in England

> historically? I think they are around 30 now? I

> was educated overseas and our standard class size

> was 30-32 (one teacher per class - at least for

> primary and core secondary subjects), this was

> taken as a given and not really debated much /

> seemed to work OK. Have class sizes here

> increased over the years or have they also always

> been around this mark? (Obvs might be smaller in

> more remote spots, so thinking about maximums in

> populated areas)?

[alex_b]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just out of interest (not to make any particular

> point), what have class sizes been in England

> historically? I think they are around 30 now? I

> was educated overseas and our standard class size

> was 30-32 (one teacher per class - at least for

> primary and core secondary subjects), this was

> taken as a given and not really debated much /

> seemed to work OK. Have class sizes here

> increased over the years or have they also always

> been around this mark? (Obvs might be smaller in

> more remote spots, so thinking about maximums in

> populated areas)?

30 is the legal max and I think has been since the 90s. When I was at school in the 80s we had 25 in a class at Infants, Juniors and Secondary (until GCSEs). There are some places in the country where class sizes are much much smaller for instance village schools near Bath still often have two years in one class that fewer than 20 kids.

[oliviaandmilo]

Currently class sizes have become smaller in London as the bulge classes put in place 10/12 yrs ago can't remember exactly! Means since then the birth numbers have dropped and after extra schools were built at the time of growth they now find they are in a situation where schools are closing and class sizes are getting smaller in state schools! Some yr groups have as little as 16 children.

[mrwb]

Good for the kids and teachers if not for the schools finances!

oliviaandmilo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Currently class sizes have become smaller in

> London as the bulge classes put in place 10/12 yrs

> ago can't remember exactly! Means since then the

> birth numbers have dropped and after extra schools

> were built at the time of growth they now find

> they are in a situation where schools are closing

> and class sizes are getting smaller in state

> schools! Some yr groups have as little as 16

> children.

[Soylent Green]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does this mean that classroom numbers will

> necessarily fall? If so, could this be a

> plus-point from this situation?

Hardly. Which would you prefer; 30 kids in a class with a teacher and a TA, or 22 kids in a class with a teacher but no TA?

[RoundTable]

Hands down a class of 22 with a teacher. TAs are often used little more as babysitters with photocopying skills. It takes a lot of training and a certain whole-school culture to use TAs effectively. Many teachers don?t know what to do with their TAs. Many headteachers don?t know what to do with their TAs.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812507/Deployment_of_teaching_assistants_report.pdf

[legalalien]

We didn?t have TAs when I was at school in the dark ages. Just 30-32 kids plus teacher. When did they get invented?

[alice]

around the time they started closing Special schools.

[OutOfFocus]

alice Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> around the time they started closing Special

> schools.

Excuse my ignorance, are TAs alwayz/often / sometimes responsible for Special needs children?

[legalalien]

If you look at the report RoundTable linked to above it has a description on about page 5-6, primaries use TAs for whole class support, there are also some TAs used for targeted support.

Thanks for posting by the way RT, I started reading it yesterday and looks interesting.

[legalalien]

If you look at the report RoundTable linked to above it has a description on about page 5-6, primaries use TAs for whole class support, there are also some TAs used for targeted support.

Thanks for posting by the way RT, I started reading it yesterday and looks interesting.

[alice]

Children with a statement [now called an EHCP] which often detailed specific 1:1/ small group activities/strategies which would require an additional adult.

[alice]

Children with a statement [now called an EHCP] which often detailed specific 1:1/ small group activities/strategies which would require an additional adult.