Invisible Cyclists

[the-e-dealer]

Every Night I drive home through Dulwich and every night I see cyclists at the last minute. They have no lights front or back and often no reflectors. I'm worried that I will hit one one day and that I will be blamed. I suppose now the evenings are becoming lighter this is less of an issue but I'm sure once upon a time cycles had to have lights.

[Alan Medic]

I haven't seen them.

[LondonLogCo]

Hats off to you TED , this is your best post/ thread thus far.

I see a considerable number myself every day. Some are just underlit and dressed in dark clothes, whilst others just seem not to care or consider how they are seen ( or not )

But there's a minority who seem to have a fekk you attitude - I dare you to knock me off.

Trouble is , as a driver of a big white truck, it's my duty to behave impeccably-coz everyone hates us. Whereas cycling is promoted as the saviour of the city.

We need a new safety campaign for all road users, something's got to change or more van/car/bicycle accidents will occur.

But FFS sake, get some lights going on please - it's a no-brainer.

[alice]

i shout dead cyclist from my car window

[LondonLogCo]

alice Wrote:

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> i shout dead cyclist from my car window

I may well adopt this phrase.

[DaveR]

I also see cyclists after dark with no lights/reflectors, and it's obviously stupid and dangerous.

Having said that, it's not clear to me how you can reach this conclusion:

"But there's a minority who seem to have a fekk you attitude - I dare you to knock me off."

just from driving by.

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Dejavu TED?

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,1001941,1001941#msg-1001941

[the-e-dealer]

Blimey I must really care about those cyclists!

or the Altzheimers is kicking in.

[Applespider]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> I'm

> sure once upon a time cycles had to have lights.

Legally they still do - although I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone ever being pulled over for a lack of them. Drives me batty when I'm on my bike. If I come up next to a ninja cyclist, I generally make a cheery comment that their back light must have gone out since then they tend to get a little less defensive that telling them that they're a complete idiot for cycling around without them.

Personally, I veer to the other extreme - three lights on back (one on bike, one on my back and one on my helmet) and three on the front (one flash and one solid on the handlebars and one on the helmet). The other day I went to put them on the bike to discover that a little toerag had nicked the brackets for my two brightest lights. So... despite me still being left with two front/rear, I stopped by the bike shop to get new brackets.

Pretty sure they have to have reflectors too (front/back/pedal) although that might just be at point of sale. I admit not having pedal reflectors since my clip-in pedals don't allow for them. I do however have reflective flashes on my bike shoes/cycling trousers so much the same effect.

[LondonLogCo]

DaveR Wrote:

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> I also see cyclists after dark with no

> lights/reflectors, and it's obviously stupid and

> dangerous.

>

> Having said that, it's not clear to me how you can

> reach this conclusion:

>

> "But there's a minority who seem to have a fekk

> you attitude - I dare you to knock me off."

>

> just from driving by.

Yes Dave

Just from driving by !

Ever driven through Hoxton or Blackfrirs in a white truck at rush hour ?

[DaveR]

Does driving a white van make you a mind-reader? Only during rush hour in Blackfriars, or more generally?

[LondonLogCo]

No David it doesn't , but then I never said I could, you put mind reading into the conversation not me

I did say the word "seem" in my post, which implies it's my perception ( from my white van - yes )

However, I've witnessed cyclists deliberately ride at my vehicle or across in front of it in such a manner that makes me consider my comment as valid. In my opinion- in my view.

And just as there's are certain drivers who's actions on the road to cyclists is highly questionable , there are cyclists too who's actions are equally questionable.

So i'll stick to my previous assertion of cyclists who "seem" to have a fekk off - I dare you to knock me off attitude.

Okay !

And for balance. I cycle to work nearly everyday from May to September on a Black Brompton, to Hoxton and via the City.

[nimby]

YOU Shot dead a cyclist from your window? !

[Kailyn]

I guess police should fine those cyclists without any lights on. Or at least make some preveventive campaign.

[Amoeba]

Just to provide a little perspective - I cycled home last night from Waterloo (as I do every night) and counted 42 other cyclists on my side of the road. Of these only 2 were without lights (on Walworth Road). This is pretty typical in my experience so on the plus side the message does seem to be getting through to the vast majority of cyclists.

[Applespider]

It's probably also worth a mention to any other cyclist reading this thread that checking the batteries in your lights regularly is a good idea. They can look reasonably bright when first turned on but fade to a very dull glow that can only be seen from a few feet away as the batteries get low - particularly the rear one which it's very easy to just turn on/off rather than actually go behind your bike and check.

[rgutsell]

Hey all

The laws describing the lighting requirements for all road users are ages old, and stipulate what colours, intensities and size the lights should be, and what they are used for. Bicycles and motor vehicles should all comply. Flashing lights are actually illegal on bicycles!

If they wanted to, Police could simply pull all vehicles and bikes over, and check their lights, fitted equipment, road safety etc. It is rarely done to cyclists, but I did hear about a bicycle check being carried out by Police in Southwark recently. Maybe just rumour. The problem might be that if they did stop cyclists, what would they do with all the bicycles forced off the road for being unsafe? If they just warned the owners, most would jump back on their bikes when out of sight.

I think that a campaign of bicycle checks all over London, followed by warnings, and notices of what needs to be done to the bikes, would do wonders for raising cyclng standards. Bring it on!!

R Gutsell

[the-e-dealer]

Well the Fuzz on Motorbikes have been fining Cyclists on Charing Cross Road for Red Light Offences all week but really although rude and unpleasant and a little dangerous I think no lights on a rainy dark night are potentially deadly and should be pursued first. Because I dont want a dead Cyclist on my Bonnet it would be a very sad thing.

[Burbage]

rgutsell Wrote:

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> The laws describing the lighting requirements for

> all road users are ages old

1989 might seem ages old to anyone born yesterday, but for those of us of older growth, they're not that ancient.

Moreover, they've been amended a few times since, with the last set of changes (a whole eight years ago) leaving us in a position where the DfT guidelines (last updated, shockingly, in 2010) now run, in relation to "pedal cycle lighting":

"The lamps may be steady or flashing, or a mixture - e.g. steady at the front and flashing at the rear. A steady light is recommended at the front when the cycle is used in areas without good street lighting."

If you are after constructing some sort of campaign, though, you might find rewarding ground in the requirement for pedal reflectors, which is largely incompatible with what are known as "clipless" pedals, thus rendering many keen cyclists well within the scope of your intriguing obsession. If you approached the police with a view to interesting them in a proposal along those grounds you're likely to get a conceivably more constructive response than one based entirely on pre-millennial preconceptions.

[rgutsell]

Do I detect a touch of sarcasm?

I'm a cyclist and driver, with years of experience on HGV and PSV (now HGC and PCV!) vehicles.

I do not want to be left with the emotional trauma of being involved in an accident with a cyclist, whether my fault or not.

What is the point of lying injured in a hospital bed thinking "It wasn't my fault!"?

So, when we are in our buses, lorries, cars etc and watch as commuting cyclists pull out to pass parked vehicles without apparently looking, signaling, or having any concern about what vehicles are following them, who is driving them and if the driver is even paying attention (and not on their mobiles), I am concerned. So should everyone be.

I also give thanks for the huge majority of trained and attentive drivers ( Many of whom are cyclists) who brake, move out, adjust their speed etc to compensate for the cyclists.

I like cycling, and I think it should continue to develop. To do this, one of the things that the cycling fraternity needs to do is bite the bullet and get serious about being legal, road ready, and lose the concept that just anyone can get any old piece of equipment, and get on the road without training or knowledge, or any legal concern about safety. Cyclists would have to lose some of their "freedom".

I think a serious effort by Police to make safety checks etc would be benificial in the long run, painful at the outset.

Rgutsell

[Burbage]

rgutsell Wrote:

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> Do I detect a touch of sarcasm?

Well, to paraphrase Mr Eastwood, do you?

> I also give thanks for the huge majority of

> trained and attentive drivers ( Many of whom are

> cyclists) who brake, move out, adjust their speed

> etc to compensate for the cyclists.

Quite right. Credit where it's due. I've even heard that some of them don't eat babies.

> I like cycling, and I think it should continue to

> develop.

That's very good of you, sir.

To do this, one of the things that the

> cycling fraternity needs to do is bite the bullet

> and get serious about being legal, road ready, and

> lose the concept that just anyone can get any old

> piece of equipment, and get on the road without

> training or knowledge, or any legal concern about

> safety. Cyclists would have to lose some of their

> "freedom".

Of course. But, as you so eloquently pointed out, that's already not the case, and rules do apply. They might not be the rules that suit you in particular, but that's democracy for you. Besides, while the highway remains so depressingly public (even horses can go on it, without so much as passing a theory test), removing the freedoms that make Britain so subtly different from, say, North Korea, is going to take a hard sell. Pedestrians aren't fond of kevlar and buggies are expensive enough without being armoured. Of course, if everyone prepared themselves so considerately, we might be able to scrap some of the oppressive rules that force innocent motorists to (mostly) buy insurance and look out of windows, but that particular utopia seems almost as distant as it was in the 1950s.

> I think a serious effort by Police to make safety

> checks etc would be benificial in the long run,

> painful at the outset.

Sure. But, despite popular preconceptions, albeit preconceptions unhelpfully informed by events, the police aren't supposed to persecute people for things that aren't illegal or enforce laws that don't exist. So if you want to stir them up into what passes for action (ignoring, of course, the possibility that they might already be doing exactly what you've suggested), you'll have to forget any nonsense about flashing. You might also, if only to save time, ditch any ideas you might have about exposed ankles or the wrong sort of hat, subjects on which the legislators of modern times have been scandalously lax.

[LadyDeliah]

I agree with Burbage.

Motorised vehicle drivers appear to assume that they have primary rights over use of the highways, but they do not. The highways are equally there for other forms of traffic.

Drivers are going round in huge, lethal bits of machinery and the onus should be on them to consider the vulnerability of all other users of the highway when they take to the roads.

[Applespider]

As rgutsell says there are more good drivers out there than bad - and more good cyclists than bad.

But just as the police can pull over a motorist with faulty lights, why shouldn't they be able to pull over a cyclist without any lights? Reflectors can be simulated by clothing etc so a bike can conform to the spirit of the law even if not the letter.

There are rights and responsibilities for cyclists - if I want to claim my right of motorists passing me with sufficient room (as the Highway code says), then it's only right that I give those motorists a fighting chance of seeing me by using lights after dark. That's not saying that drivers shouldn't be driving sensibly enough that they are able to see ninja cyclists in time to avoid collisions but equally, cyclists should be riding sensibly enough that they don't put themselves in danger.

While many cyclists do have driving licenses and so should know the rules of the road, it is quite bizarre that people who can have no clue on British rights of way etc, can just hop on a bike and share the road with cars who will expect them to follow the rules. I don't think there's any sensible way of licensing it but I do believe that any one getting on a bike should have some duty of care to other road users to follow the rules of that road.

[BJL]

Invisible cyclists - Darwinism at work.

[malumbu]

My poll of cyclists was perhaps about 5%, maybe up to 10 if you considered poor lighting.

Not all were the I couldn't give a fuck variety.

On the odd occasion that I forget my lights I do my best to make sure that I am out of traffic's way or can be well seen. Don't understand those in black, on a black bike, with no lights, cycling past the traffic at speed on Rye Lane.

Anyway more importantly pedestrians should wear lights, indicate, and be banned from texting and mobiling whilst pedestrianising. There needs to be a new offence pedestrianising without due care and attention.

In the old days wearing something light, carrying a torch and a rolled up newspaper would have been fine. But for as many bikes without lights I see someone all in black crossing the road without bothering to look.