Increase in Lime Bikes on LL

[first mate]

Yes, fair enough, but I would not compare local residents use with that of a tech giant.

[Rockets]

BBC News - E-bike rage in the borough that's had enough - and how it might be solved
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly9jqd5765o

 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

“[Brent] wants riders to park in cordoned-off areas only and increased fines for those who don’t.

Lime says it is willing to work with Brent Council but wants more of these parking zones to ensure it is still a convenient service for its customers in the borough.

…Wandsworth Council says it will largely ban e-bikes being left anywhere on pavements once it has finished building 111 dedicated parking areas. “
 

That’s exactly what is being proposed for Southwark, isn’t it? Seems reasonable and I’d be in favour (so long as there is also a roving band of AI droids identifying and immediately shredding all Lime bikes not parked in approved areas). 

[Azalea]

How did this company get permission to operate their business like this in the first place?   Kickbacks?  They are horrendous.     

[Rockets]

I think this is the problem - councils are controlling the rollout of these "trials" and there is clearly money/revenue being generated by someone and councils have been happy to allow the problem to get to this point - they're all chasing the potential revenue stream. Whomever decided to not have any co-ordinated, centralised approach to this and let councils do what they want really needs to question their decision-making process.

We now have a closing the stable door after the horse has bolted situation which is going to be very challenging to resolve.

Now councils want to force e-bike companies to pen their bikes because constituents hate the mess but this is not the business model the e-bike companies need to get an ROI (and there is a huge amount of investment money going in to try and win exclusivity and I think Lime have suggested that they need exclusivity). The vast majority of journeys on these bikes are first or last mile journeys so the model is based on find a bike on your road and use them to get to your railway or tube station instead of walking or getting the bus. If councils insist on penning them then people may not bother to use them so now the argument is raging as councils said "tidy up your mess" and e-bike companies said "well we need stations everywhere" - (I think I read their addressable market sweetspot they need to get to is a bike within a one minute walk of everyone) and councils have said "that may not be possible".

 

[Spartacus]

There's been a crackdown on the illegal ebikes rides by delivery drivers by the police in certain areas of Southwark. Where they have been modified for speed, they fall foul of the rules which class them as motorbikes and require insurance and a licence.

Now that's an area that needs tightening up and the stable door firmly closing on. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

51 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Whomever decided to not have any co-ordinated, centralised approach to this and let councils do what they want really needs to question their decision-making process.

The Conservatives were voted out in May 2024. And tbf this wasn’t even in their Top 20 of central government failures.

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

The Conservatives were voted out in May 2024. And tbf this wasn’t even in their Top 20 of central government failures.

😉

But wasn't it TFL who are managing the London programmes after the Mayor delegated his authority to them - he certainly did that for e-scooter trials?

 

And on that someone asked who is making money from this - the borough's are (if the same type of model is being used for e-bikes as e-scooters). I found this (it seems very difficult to find anything on e-bike trail costs but the London Councils website seems to lump e-bike and e-scooter trials together)

 

5.2. In addition to covering their costs of delivery, each operator will be required to pay charges in respect of every e-scooter and full-service or ride-through borough. As set out in Appendix B, charges paid per operator will vary every period and depend on the number of ride-through and full-service boroughs participating, as well as the number of e-scooters in their fleet. Distribution of these payments from operators to the boroughs would be determined by fleet size plus the proportion of trips that end in each borough.

 

The administration agreement sets out the charges payable by the operators which include: 1. A one-off upfront charge per participating borough of:

o £5,000 per full-service borough

o £2,500 per ride-through borough

 

2. Ongoing per-vehicle per-period operator payments for each of the 13 4-week periods covering the duration of the trial. This shall be calculated using the average number of escooters made available to rent throughout the preceding review period across the trial area, multiplied by a tiered per vehicle charge dependent on the number of e-scooters made available to rent by the operator as set out below:

Average number of vehicles made available over the review period

Charge per vehicle to that tier

0 – 2200 £5.50 per vehicle

2201 – 4400 £6.50 per vehicle

4401 + £7.50 per vehicle

[malumbu]

Fundamentally hire bikes a good thing so surely better spending time on making the concept work better rather than loathing them.  By all means lobby government on the free for all of food delivery

[first mate]

Clearly your view but not one universally shared, not least by those boroughs and cities getting rid of them.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

But wasn't it TFL who are managing the London programmes after the Mayor delegated his authority to them

No.

[6musicdad]

58 minutes ago, first mate said:

Clearly your view but not one universally shared, not least by those boroughs and cities getting rid of them.

What cities are getting rid of them?
 

I saw in the FT usage is up 100% year on year so they’re not going away - London just needs to adapt like Paris has (centralised docking, get rid of parking spaces etc)

[malumbu]

I know of plenty of people who use them and like them. Are others living in a bubble?  I have no need for them but understand that others do.

[first mate]

46 minutes ago, melbournemarcus said:

What cities are getting rid of them?
 

I saw in the FT usage is up 100% year on year so they’re not going away - London just needs to adapt like Paris has (centralised docking, get rid of parking spaces etc)

Yes, I should have added e-scooters.  

[Rockets]

12 hours ago, melbournemarcus said:

I saw in the FT usage is up 100% year on year so they’re not going away - London just needs to adapt like Paris has (centralised docking, get rid of parking spaces etc)

Up 91% in a year in peak commuting hours rather than 100% year on year growth - that's a key difference.

https://www.ft.com/content/730d4dab-e80a-4e14-a343-abafd868c5f0

The article also says the people are increasingly using them for first and last mile journeys (which probably explains the 91% growth) - to and from tube and railway stations etc - which is great as long as they are not replacing walking. If my kids usage is anything to go by then laziness tends to be the over-riding factor as they jump on them when we come back to our local stations for journeys they used to walk and only took a few minutes.

The article is well worth a read as it goes some way to explain why the carpet bombing of bikes by various companies is creating the challenge - the VC funded gold-rush is blinding everyone to the impact they are having on streets and residents. I very much sense, given the £ involved, it will get worse before it gets better as operators and councils are distracted by the revenue generating opportunities.

13 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

14 hours ago, Rockets said:

But wasn't it TFL who are managing the London programmes after the Mayor delegated his authority to them

No.

Are you sure?

https://www.london.gov.uk/md3227-delegation-mayoral-powers-continuation-e-scooter-rental-trial

Edited September 10, 2024 by Rockets

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

39 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Are you sure?

https://www.london.gov.uk/md3227-delegation-mayoral-powers-continuation-e-scooter-rental-trial

Yes. E-bikes and scooters are regulated entirely differently. 

[malumbu]

Twist and go e bikes are actually 'powered two wheelers' so need to be registered, riders have to have licenses and insurance and pay vehicle excise duty (ie like motorbikes and mopeds).  Therefore unless this is done they are not road legal.  A quick fix was sorted for hire electric scooters, and those not under a hire scheme are illegal both on the road and pavement.  A whole different thread.  Some stuff from Raleigh who don't sell non-road legal bikes is useful  https://www.raleigh.co.uk/gb/en/electric-bike-knowledge/do-electric-bikes-have-throttles/

Lime bikes and other electrically assisted bikes are in regulator terms the same as pedal cycles.

[Rockets]

So what powers did the Mayor delegate to TFL for the running of the e-scooter programme then? By default does that not suggest that the power lay with the Mayor's office in the first instance and that TFL were then handed the decision-making authority? Is it completely different for e-bikes - The London Councils' website lumps e-bikes and e-scooters together but is very little publically available on the mechanisms behind e-bikes, does anyone know where it is located?

Here is what the website says: https://archive.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/transport/rental-escooters-and-ebikes

Rental e-bikes

The rental market for e-bikes is unregulated at the national level but some boroughs have agreements in place with one or more operator(s). Following a discussion at London Councils' Transport and Environment Committee, TfL, London Councils and London boroughs will now be exploring the design of one coordinated future scheme to manage dockless e-bikes and e-scooters in London, through a contract, to improve parking, while increasing the quality and sustainability of services in London.

Edited September 10, 2024 by Rockets

[malumbu]

I'm not really sure what you want.  Is it banning e bike rental schemes?  And ditto for e scooter rentals?   I don't expect that is going to happen, as said before would it not be better getting the schemes to work better.  A good start would be to write to Ellie explaining what you want and we we need it. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

So what powers did the Mayor delegate to TFL for the running of the e-scooter programme then? By default does that not suggest that the power lay with the Mayor's office in the first instance and that TFL were then handed the decision-making authority? Is it completely different for e-bikes

1) e-scooter trial is cascaded from central government ie DfT. It required Westminster legislation because e-scooters are prima facie illegal on public roads. It’s not a London trial - it’s a national trial. 

2) no

3) yes

 

[Rockets]

I don't think anyone is asking for them to be banned - it's pretty clear that the thread is about the problems they are causing for other pavement and road users and how councils and the companies rolling them out need to get on top of this because it is clearly a big problem and I suspect the banning of e-scooters in some places is being used a trojan horse to say to the companies "get your house in order".

 

Longer term I do think there needs to be pragmatic analysis on whether they are having a positive impact on active travel or merely replacing journeys that used to be walked - a la my unscientific child use-case example!

3 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

1) e-scooter trial is cascaded from central government ie DfT. It required Westminster legislation because e-scooters are prima facie illegal on public roads. It’s not a London trial - it’s a national trial. 

2) no

3) yes

 

Yes but would it not have been good for someone to try and co-ordinate at the London level for e-bikes? Seems to me from the London Councils website that everyone was left to their own devices and that is one of the reasons we have got ourselves into the mess we are in because each council did their own thing and they now want to co-ordinate which feels like bolting the door.....the challenges with e-bikes are global and not unique to any one city so why no-one thought this might happen is anyone's guess.

 

The rental market for e-bikes is unregulated at the national level but some boroughs have agreements in place with one or more operator(s). Following a discussion at London Councils' Transport and Environment Committee, TfL, London Councils and London boroughs will now be exploring the design of one coordinated future scheme to manage dockless e-bikes and e-scooters in London, through a contract, to improve parking, while increasing the quality and sustainability of services in London.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Yes but would it not have been good for someone to try and co-ordinate at the London level for e-bikes? Seems to me from the London Councils website that everyone was left to their own devices…the challenges with e-bikes are global and not unique to any one city so why no-one thought this might happen is anyone's guess...

The rental market for e-bikes is unregulated at the national level

Yes, there should have been e-bike rental legislation at national level. The last government didn’t grasp the nettle when it arose and this government doesn’t seem inclined to unify 100 councils’ responses either.

[Rockets]

Given the delegation of powers from the Mayor's office to TFL over e-scooters I am very surprised no-one thought that e-bikes might need some sort of co-ordination/guidance. It is ludicrous that neighbouring councils could have different suppliers and different approaches to e-bike rollout - I know it is one of the things that the operators have complained about that a bike can be geo-fenced to a council boundary and cannot cross it.

 

The lack of joined-up thinking is astounding and has been a big contributor to the mess there is.

[jazzer]

All Lime and the other brands of bikes and scooters simply need crushing, job done. 

Edited September 10, 2024 by jazzer

[ab29]

way too many of these; Lime boss is leaving luxury life in US somewhere - why is he allowed to take over whatever little pedestrians' space there is to take in London?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by ab29