LTN Discussion

[Penguin68]

..?

Weirdest troll I've seen

[Earl Aelfheah]

Vehicle counts show that Dulwich Village has less traffic than before the measures.

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/traffic-data-analysis

[Rockets]

Rahx3 - what's your point exactly - you know they close vehicular access to parts of Dulwich Village for large parts of the day and have basically ring-fenced the village with LTNs.....so really a reduction is, well, kind of understandable is it not?

[malumbu]

More importantly Rocks is that Occamracer couldn't find Gail's. I can't afford croissant and coffee in the village, hopefully you can help 🙂

[Rockets]

Here is the detail from TFL on what is happening to cycling in London at the moment - no boom

And here is the National Travel Survey data debunking DFT's claims of billions of extra miles - which was the key narrative used to prop up the cycle lobby's push for LTNs. It was just not happening.

Malumbu - never been a fan of Gail's, much more an Au Ciel or Redemption fan....next time you venture to Dulwich Village let me know and I will gladly buy you a coffee and a croissant!

[Spartacus]

The Sunday Telegraph has a piece on LTNs today, claiming that this week, a review of the Government’s Minor Road Traffic Estimates’ report, whose findings were frequently used to justify the schemes, found that the DfT had significantly over-counted the rise in traffic on residential streets between 2009 and 2019.

In London, where figures suggesting an almost 60 per cent rise in minor road traffic and a 72 per cent rise on the smallest roads had been widely cited, there had in fact been no increase at all over the decade, the new data show.

This leads to doubt that the LTN schemes have been implemented on correct assumptions.

Hopefully this new information from the DfT will be the start of unravelling the mess LTNs have caused.

The story is here https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/01/war-motorists-based-false-government-data-calls-scrap-ltns-grow/

[Spartacus]

Here's the data behind the story.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/road-traffic-statistics-information#minor-roads-traffic-estimate-review

All this at the same time that the council are redesigning the junction in the village.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The headline of that Telegraph article, starts "War on Motorists.."

Seems reliable.

[Spartacus]

The headline of that Telegraph article, starts "War on Motorists.."

Seems reliable.

 

So you dismiss the fact the the DfT figures that LTNs are based on are false because you don't like the strap line used..

Interesting how you try to dismiss key data that goes against your narrative just like that...

[Rockets]

Imagine how the cycle-lobby will go on the attack when they start to realise that cycling in London is significantly lower than it was in 2019! ;-)

It's not so much a war on motorists as a war on every other road user other than cyclists - emergency services, buses, pedestrians, lorries, taxis, private car owners - you name it they have all been pushed to one side in favour of cyclists and, for all the money and disruption to the London economy and everything else that these policies have impacted negatively still there is no sign that there is a cycle boom (despite what Aldred and co may claim in their research - which is becoming more laughable by the day as actual TFL data shows that the cycle boom never happened).

At some point people are going to start asking whether the millions if not billions that the Mayor's office wasted on this experiment been worth it and I think it is very clear that to date it hasn't.

Look at Margy Square as a very local case in point. The amount of money spent on that and the repeated failures by the council to find a solution that works for everyone from the emergency services through cyclists and pedestrians.

Just look at what has appeared on the road at that junction in the last couple of days - two painted cycle lanes, one in each direction with absolutely zero consideration for the pedestrians or others that use the space. Remember, when this planning disaster was first rolled out it was mooted as a shared space for everyone (remember the ludicrous concerts organised in the Square to emphasise the shared space element) - well all of that has been thrown to one side in favour of making the junction a glorified cycle super-highway where pedestrians and everyone else are de-prioritised in favour of cyclists.

And all of this has happened without any of the promised consultation with local residents on usage - Cllr Rose and her band of planners have just gone ahead and thrown in what they (and the cycle-lobby) think is best for the junction despite assurances that locals were going to be consulted.

You hope one day someone in the council will be forced to accept responsibility for this complete disaster which has just gone to demonstrate how much time, money and effort the council wastes whilst pandering to the whims of lobbyists.

[Rockets]

Cllr Leeming claiming residents have been/are being consulted....does anyone know anyone who lives close to the junction that has been consulted or engaged with to date? This looks all like a retrospective action after the council recently spent hundreds of thousands turning the junction into a glorified cycle super highway without consulting anyone...they claim these are interim measures before the consultation starts....hmmmm

https://twitter.com/RM_Leeming/status/1578413546735816704?t=QK-jMqW_ze7U8mGrphY43Q&s=19

[Rockets]

Very interesting taking a closer look at the proposals - there's a new LTN introduced with the permanent closure of Turney Road to vehicular traffic between Burbage and Dulwich Village.

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/dulwich-village-streets-for-people-phase-2/consultation/subpage.2022-09-23.6861053244/

Respondents are presented with two design options and have to select one - both of which, of course, prioritise cyclists over every other user of the space and both of which close Turney Road to cars and vehicles - one wonders what residents of Turney think as they won't get any vehicular access by looks of the designs.

Once again, this is not a consultation as there is no way to object to either design as people are presented with Option 1 or Option 2 or No Preference - thereby ensuring the council gerrymander their plans through.

[Rockets]

And here is the second proposed design.

[Spartacus]

How will emergency vehicles get through?

It seems there's a turning space for them but no through access.

Or am I wrong ?

[Bic Basher]

With Turney Road becoming part of a new LTN, that will shift even more traffic onto Croxted Road which has seen the worst of the jams since the Village LTN was implemented.

[legalalien]

Wait- they’re closing Turney Road now?

Seems so as have just had a flyer through the letterbox…

Guessing that blocking off aysgarth, pickwick and boxall will need to be next as not wide enough for through traffic… and then a show down with the Burbage Road residents’ association?

[first mate]

Beats me why an allegedly socialist administration is spending so much time, effort and money turning one of the wealthiest parts of the borough into a traffic- free utopia, letting those on the fringes take the hit from traffic increases.

[borderpaul]

It does sound like another out of touch policy pursued by the political classes.

We have had a u turn on tax cuts for the rich, perhaps it is time for a u turn on pollution cuts for the rich as well. I am totally in favours of cuts but they should be targeted where there is greatest need and shouldn't be regressive.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The designs look great! Would be really good to pedestrianise North Cross Road and get some good landscaping in. The more we can create spaces designed around people instead of cars, the better.

[Spartacus]

The designs look great! Would be really good to pedestrianise North Cross Road and get some good landscaping in. The more we can create spaces designed around people instead of cars, the better.

 

Rah x3 you really feel like the EDF equivalent of Nicola, constantly banging the car independence drum against most others views.

NxR doesn't need pedestrianisation, it operates a market a few days a week when it is closed to all but pedestrians which currently works perfectly

Think of the issues traders will have if they can't drive to outside their businesses with heavy goods 7 days a week, far from thriving, it will see some traders closing or moving away.

[Rockets]

Unfortunately Rahx3 is very much part of the problem not the solution and their views are so reflective of the many blinkered pro-cycle brigade that have commanded more attention with the council than they warrant over the last few years. As long as cyclists are happy then stuff anyone else.

My problem with the plans is, again, the council is not offering anyone the opportunity to argue against the measures - the "consultation" has been designed to ensure they get the measures through whether local people want them or not. These councillors are the same ones who take every opportunity to rail against government for underhand tactics yet are more than happy to use such tactics when it suits their agenda.

It is such hypocrisy on a massive scale and I sense there is going to be another wave of constituent discontent with these plans, certainly many of our neighbours have not had any say thus far and are incredulous that the council suggests there has been any engagement with local people - the amount of our money that the council is wasting on these cycle lobby pandering vanity projects is unbelievable and the DV junction is being turned into an extension of the Herne Hill velodrome to the benefit of one group and no-one else. It's time it stopped and the council take a more balanced approach that is inclusive of everyone who uses the spaces.

[malumbu]

Good to see some positive views Rah Rah and better still a short posting.

[legalalien]

Incidentally, I nearly got taken out yesterday by a four wheeled electric cargo bike (with a roof, it was nearly the size of a small car) travelling at a fair clip through the junction. Keep your wits about you! A lady cycling by commented that it must be on the borderline of what could reasonably be regarded as a bicycle. If I understand it correctly electric bikes are treated as "pedal cycles" as long as the motor is not able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph. I'd be quite keen to have a slower limit than that for cycles traversing the Dulwich junction (noting that electric cycles coming down the hill could be travelling faster than that - I guess at the moment there is no speed limit on these electric bikes, but I believe it's possible to introduce byelaws for particular stretches of road?). Hard to enforce in all cases but appropriate signage would help, and at least you'd catch large commercial cargo bikes as they are branded/ it would be possible to contact the company and tell them to slow down.

[first mate]

The psychology of the speeding cyclist seems similar to that of the speeding motorist. In fact, I think the latter are often high-handed converts from the former.

Rah Nx is already car free on Saturdays fir the market, no real need to make it so full time. BTW have you sold your own car yet?

[legalalien]

Have just been reading the 2022 Pupil Place Planning Report, which is interesting not just in relation to the oversupply of school places, but also in giving information about trends in school catchments, both private and state schools. Although the birth rate in PA5 (Dulwich) has been dropping, the numbers at Dulwich schools are actually increasing by a margin of around 16%, which as the report notes, suggests that catchment areas are growing, which I imagine tends to increase the existing problem of motor journeys into the Dulwich area for school drop off and collection - see page 25.

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s109543/Report%20Annual%20School%20Place%20Planning.pdf

I was interested to see stats on the independent school catchments as I thought they might shed some light on the scale of the school traffic problem.

On primaries, "Of the 1,787 pupils attending private primary schools in Southwark, 1,644

(92%) of these were attending schools situated in PA5. That said, only 44 of

the latter were LBS residents (3%)". Three percent? That just isn't right (I do the admin for a sports club and there are significantly more than 44 children falling into that category on our books, and we certainly don't have every independent schoolchild in the area enrolled).

And then it says on independent secondaries that "The number of private secondary pupils in the local authority area at the eight registered

private secondaries has not altered significantly (3,901 secondary age pupils, or around

130 classes), nor those receiving education at home. Around 95 secondary age pupils –

2% of the schools total – attend a private school in Southwark and are resident in

Southwark." I'm not very convinced by these figures either, which suggest that only 16 boys in Years 7-13 at Dulwich College live in Southwark (and only 8 in Years 7 and 8 at DPL).

If those figures are correct then you can see why it's a massive challenge to get everyone to bike to school (I know some children will live a short distance from the schools but in Lambeth/ Lewisham/ Croydon - but still...). I'm not convinced that they are, though. I seem to recall that in the past the council simply said that it didn't have info on the independent schools, so I wonder where it has come from for this report. If the schools and council are going to try and tackle the school travel problem then some accurate/ granular info about travel patterns would be useful, I imagine.

Lastly Kingsdale is noted as having a very large catchment - "Kingsdale – whose admissions criteria are not distance based, and whose

position in the far south of the borough on the borders with Lewisham, Croydon, Bromley

and Lambeth means that the school receives a majority of its applications (68%) from

outside Southwark, and recruits the majority of its pupils from outside Southwark as well."