LTN Discussion

[Chick]

And Oakhurst Grove.

[Rockets]

They seem to have gone in all over the area - I saw some on East Dulwich Road, there are three sets on Barry Road and even some on Desenfans Road. I wonder if, finally, the council are trying to get a proper area-wide view of the impact of LTNs, especially given the placement of the strips suggests they are trying to ensure that the sub-10kmp/h non-recording issue is not a factor.

[Spartacus]

More likely they are trying to see which roads need focusing on to design out speed or introduce cameras.

My bet is Barry Road will end up with the one way priority chicaines that force traffic to slow down making bus journeys even more painful 😒 

[legalalien]

Not sure if it's already been posted elsewhere, but here's a link to the officers' report/ recommendations on the DV/Calton and Red Post hill junction re-designs in Dulwich Village.  Haven't read it yet.

Issue details - Dulwich Village Streets for People - Junction re-design and Red Post Hill - Southwark Council

[Rockets]

Clearly the overwhelming majority of respondents to the consultation do not support the proposed changes.....if the council don't take heed of the consultation results then they are incredibly blinkered/foolish...

 

It will be very interesting to see how the council/their cheerleaders try to spin this...

Edited March 5 by Rockets

[mrwb]

On 01/03/2024 at 04:03, legalalien said:

Sadiq Khan admits south London’s new low-traffic neighbourhood ‘not great’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e8636826-0a45-4d4e-9dc2-05a983c75e90?shareToken=eacd07b1789f8862adca1b8e019fcb5d
 

The mayor has noticed that the emperor has no clothes?

 

It's total gridlock at the bottom end of Streatham high road every afternoon from what I've seen...

Lambeth have previous with the closure at Loughborough junction, iirc that only got removed when someone died or nearly died as it slowed down the ambulance / blocked them in so much.  

Pretty sure the fines must have dried up for the LTNs around here by now, most people got wise to them, that £1m in fines in 3 months is a distant memory for the council... Given it's always been about revenue generation imo, won't be surprised if they're changed to try and trap people again somehow. 

[Rockets]

Despite the overwhelming opposition to the DV design proposals (close to 50% of all respondents responded "not at all" to the questions on whether the redesign would achieve it's stated aims) - and remember there was no "yes/no" mechanism on this consultation - the council appears to be forging ahead with them.....someone should probably remind the councillors that 82% of all of the respondents to the consultation said they live in Dulwich....will the council ever listen to their constituents, why bother to run consultations (each consultation is estimated to cost around £50,000) if they plan to ignore the input of residents.......?

 

 

The council's report says: Instructs officers to proceed to the detailed design stage for the Dulwich Village Junction Improvements.

 

Edited March 5 by Rockets

[Spartacus]

If you take only the good and strong support it amounts to less than a 1/3 of all responses which isn't a strong thumbs uo sign for the consultation.

But as we all know, the council only do a consultation because they have to and they don't actually care what the results are as the outcome will always be that it will occur.

Somehow we really need to call these decisions in.

[legalalien]

https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Farticle%2F503439b7-e425-4c45-bfff-e51c216c240c%3FshareToken%3Dbca4f5ba2d4ffcb4874a3bcbb11198d3&data=05%7C02%7C%7Ccc7cb78cfa5d41464ce908dc3edd10d3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638454366396089951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pyi%2BbCz1asuM3qJhwb0gk8odEf4Bflr4fr1enMsHcdo%3D&reserved=0

Not sure if this link will work.

[Rockets]

Lambeth are always doing u-turns on ill thought out traffic measures - remember the Loughborough Junction debacle?

They must be wasting a fortune of tax-payers money on these schemes and you know no-one will be held accountable for the chaos they caused (in a not unsurprising "its not our fault" defence it's all Thames Water's fault apparently).

The fact it is being withdrawn with immediate effect shows how bad it was. It's amazing no-one at the council considered the impact of the measures they were putting in.

 

You have to question the professionalism of the people involved and whether they had any clue what they were doing.

Too soon Lambeth Cyclists too soon...(clearly reading the room is not their forte) 😉

Edited March 7 by Rockets

[micromacromonkey]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-generally-popular-report-ordered-by-sunak-finds

Quote

A review of evidence of their effectiveness said that although formal studies were limited, they did not support the contention of opponents that LTNs simply displaced traffic to other streets rather than easing overall congestion.

“The available evidence from the UK indicates that LTNs are effective in achieving outcomes of reducing traffic volumes within their zones while adverse impacts on boundary roads appear to be limited,” it read.

The study also seems to dispel the argument that LTNs are deeply unpopular. Surveys of 1,800-plus residents in four sample schemes, in London, Birmingham, Wigan and York, found an average of 45% support and 21% opposition.

In each of the schemes, the percentage of people backing the LTNs was between 19 points and 31 points higher than the percentage opposed. In a sign that the controversy about the schemes might be largely generated by politicians and the media, 58% of people did not even know they lived in an LTN.

 

[Rockets]

Ha ha... ..LTNs are popular with people who live "WITHIN" LTNs..

...they reduce traffic volumes "within" their zones...

Oh my oh my oh my....it's actually laughable that people cite this as proof of their success. 

 

I am sure those who lived within the Streatham Vale LTN loved them....everyone else slightly less so!

Timing, it's all about timing...;-)

Edited March 8 by Rockets

[legalalien]

Here’s the Times view of the report, suggesting the Guardian is selectively reporting on it

LTN delays for emergency services ‘could risk lives’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c4015af-6fae-412e-9976-6750091f19d4?shareToken=05a7fe073b3f997de2f75c4cd2f7debc

Be interesting to see what the govt does - interesting idea of removing access to ANPR data for councils being too enthusiastic about enforcement - not sure how they’d measure that…

 

 

[Rockets]

Ha ha...The Guardian in "selectively plucking" shocker....can we file this as activist journalism to join the activist research that has been so prevalent.

 

In other words Peter Walker either got played by someone leaking the bits to him they knew he would jump on to try and skew the perception of the report before it was published or he didn't read the whole report or ignored parts of it that didn't suit his agenda.

 

Not a good look either way.....and look what happens,  the misleading article gets used by those with a vested interest - what do you call a group of selective pluckers? The cycle lobby....

https://twitter.com/willnorman/status/1766130558306865196?s=19

https://twitter.com/London_Cycling/status/1766134542383956361?s=19

I do wonder whether the sudden appearance of monitoring strips all over Dulwich is linked to the government report; that Labour are worried and expecting the govt to try and make political capital over the way these have been rolled out, the lack of monitoring. Interesting that the govt report is based on local authority monitoring data and reports by Aldred, Goodman et al as that seems to be the only data that exists (and will no doubt be seen as self-serving and flawed by the govt).

 

Actually the answer to my question may be in the Guardian report and I wonder whether there will be pressure to run a proper LTN consultation to "put residents first" as I suspect the lack of a yes/no response in Southwark's may be it's achilles heal from a legal perspective. Question is whether this can happen before Labour win the next election.

A DfT spokesperson said: “We are clear that many local authorities have not put local residents first when implementing low-traffic neighbourhoods. We are backing motorists and will produce new guidance focused on the importance of securing strong local support.”

Edited March 9 by Rockets

[Slarti2]

"Surveys of 1,800-plus residents in four sample schemes, in London, Birmingham, Wigan and York, found an average of 45% support and 21% opposition"

So the authors of the report, Ipsos on behalf of the DfT cycling campaigner Aldred and Pro-LTN activist  Goodman have managed to find 4, FOUR, schemes among 130 local authorities where residents support the LTNs?  
Did the report say how many schemes were NOT supported by residents? 

Edited:  The report has just been published and the authors are actually Ipsos, though they do quote pretty extensively "research" by Aldred and\or Goodman in certain sections.
 

Edited March 18 by Slarti2
Correction.

[legalalien]

Thought for the day..

[Spartacus]

Winds of change are coming 

BBC News - LTNs: Councils told to consider residents' support under new guidance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68588254

[Penguin68]

That won't last past the election, though, will it? 

[Spartacus]

23 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

That won't last past the election, though, will it? 

Who knows with how politicians flip flip to win voters support 🤔 

[Rockets]

It was interesting watching the coverage on it today and the talk that consultations HAD been held for many of the LTNs but, of course, the Achilles heal for many of them is whether those consultations pass the legal tide-mark for whether they allowed residents to have a voice. Southwark could well become a poster-child for how some councils have used consultations as a means to force their ideological plans on residents (and it was maybe no surprise that Southwark refused to respond to the governments request for information). 

 

This made me laugh as it presumes local communities actually had a say in the first place - a bit of a leap of faith when it comes to Southwark to say the least:

Shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh said: “The Conservatives’ latest attempt to dictate to local communities how to run their streets is a blatant and desperate attempt to distract people from a Government that has run out of road."

 

It is, of course, no coincidence that since the government shone a light on the dodgy consultation practices of some that Southwark have actually started to run consultations with a yes/no response mechanism rather than a consultation that be even responding to you are forced to validate the council's plans. An admission if you ever needed one that the previous Southwark consultations may not survive a legal/judicial review.

 

But with a new Labour government it will probably all be forgotten and a blind-eye turned to it and Southwark will be able to return to their devious consultation ways and forge ahead with whatever takes their fancy!

Edited March 18 by Rockets

[Rockets]

Anyone want to have a bet that the rideout through the DV junction yesterday just happened to be the day Anna Goodman and Rachel Aldred chose to randomly select for another Dulwich LTN cycle count....expect to read all about the huge jump in cyclists in a Peter Walker Guardian exclusive.....;-)

 

Edited March 25 by Rockets

[Rockets]

Did this Guardian journalist not get the memo....https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/30/i-thought-selling-my-car-was-the-right-thing-to-do-but-part-of-me-wish-i-had-not-bothered?CMP=share_btn_url

[Spartacus]

I guess the penny drops at different times for people.