What to do with a toddler who is seriously hard work at bedtime

[jennyh]

Hi everyone

Sure this is completely common to everyone so hoping for some good advice...

My daughter is 26 months. We managed to get her to sleep independently quite early on but she has always had her moments during developmental leaps and illness etc. For the last 6 months it has been increasingly difficult to get her to go to bed with any sense of calm or hope of a speedy sleep, she is currently screeching her head off in her room but if I go in then she just makes demands 'want wipes' 'teddy wants a drink' 'bess hurt' etc, she throws things out of bed and then calls me despite being able to get out of bed herself to fetch them. She is in that awful manipulative age where she 'WANTS' everything and frankly is quite unpleasant at times. My question is really how do I manage this?? I am not comfortable leaving her to scream as I once did because she really remembers it now and understands much more that she has been left. But I don't see how I go to her without confirming that she is getting what she wants by screaming. last night I gave up and went in and she ended up lying on my lap for 20 minutes calming down before conking out. I am on my own tonight as husband is out, I have work to do and I need to cook dinner and I have a feeling she could go on for an hour at least.

I can't seem to get her calm before bed, she bounces around like a lunatic. Seems to make no difference how busy we have been during the day, how calm she has been in the hour before bed, how nice and long her bath is or how much of a nice quiet rub she has before pyjamas. She just hates going to bed. Ive tried letting her choose new sheets and helping me make the bed which worked for one night. In the morning she wakes up saying 'no bed' and when we come in the front door throughout the day she says 'no bed'...she just fights and fights and fights it. We do 3 books and she sometimes sits down to read them, otherwise she just plays around me. Sometimes I am convinced she is over-tired, other times I think she prob has too much energy but nothing I have tried seems to make it any better!

I'm expecting another baby in December and moving house in a couple of months which I am sure will rock the boat. I just cant be going backwards and having her wrap me around her little finger so much.

PLEASE help!!!!! And I know its probably just a 'phase' but need some solution for the hear and now! Anyone got a magic answer!?

Thanks

Jenny

[RoLo1]

No major help, seems like you've tried everything tbh. I know someone who has turned going to bed into a treat - re-branding exercise if you like, so 'if you're good you can go to bed even earlier - yay" and lots of enthusiastic noises about how you can't wait to go to bed etc. It might catch on!

Mine are same age and still in cotbeds (dreading taking the sides off!) and we lift the kids up, cuddle them as we put them into bed singing 'twinkle twinkle' and sing it again when they are in bed. So I guess they like being put to bed, sometimes they come up with inventive reasons they need to get out but I just laugh and stick to 'bedtime, don't be silly' etc...

No magic answer sorry.

[buggie]

How good is her understanding??

Could you at a calm time during the day talk to her about it - maybe engineer playing putting teddy/dolly to bed and talk a bit about bedtime. Might be hard find out exactly get what is upsetting her, but she might be able to understand more that you explain about bedtime & how important it is to sleep; story books about going to bed might help too.

Being consistent about the bedtime routine is important too, sometimes at this age the rebelling is almost to check where the boundary is for what's "allowed".

We ent through a similar phase where Bugglet would want more & more stories/ not want to be lt alone and bedtime became v stressful, so i made a reward chart! covering all of bath/bedtime and made sure I included a few things that she's always especially good at doing so there'd always be something that she would get a sticker/be rewarded for. I made our own reward chart by taking photos of Bugglet doing bath time/tooth brushing/wearing pj's & a picture of 3 books indicating that was how many she could have & was amazed how quickly it was affective.

Finally, try not to show how stressed you are - really difficult, but essential as she will pick up on your stress and it could cause more upset/take longer to settle.

Hope the tips help & congrats on No 2's imminent arrival :-)

[jennyh]

Thank you! I ended up going in this evening and asking her about it calmly, didn't get much response and she did the usual thing of wanting to get out, want stuff, but she did stay in bed and I just stroked her until she closed her eyes. A vast improvement on yesterday but still takes a lot of time from me!

I love the idea of the reward chart and am definitely going to do that,equally your other comments are very helpful. I try to be calm but the pregnancy hormones drive me wild and i'm so tired that her games just tip me over the edge!

Fortunately she reasons well and understands well, she knows that if her toys keep her awake I will take them away (doesn't often work) and she knows that if she is a big girl and goes to bed then we will do something fun in the morning when the sunshine comes up. But she just gets hysterical because she is just so wired and knackered and so talks over me when I am trying to discuss things with her, she knows that I am trying to get her to listen and looks at me like she is trying to wind me up! I do a lot of 'Bess, Listen, Look at mummy, shush, bess....listen!!!! until I get her attention, then its gone again!

I have had a good think about it and decided that I will start trying to give her dinner a little earlier as she has a lot of fruit and I wonder if she gets a sugar rush plus I know that she gets a lot of energy from her dinner as i can see an immediate effect. I will then get her into her bedroom to pick her books and pyjamas etc (which I already try to do but usually unsuccessfully) and perhaps sit in her room and try to talk about her day etc for 10 mins before bath. Think she needs a bit more happy time in her room because at the moment she sees it as the evil place where she has to go to bed. Likewise she sees the bath as bad because it means the end of playing and the start of bedtime routine.

Its so exhausting!!!!! She used to play for 90 minutes in her bed each night putting her toys to sleep (she is a pro at putting dolly and teddy to bed!) and that was a pain because she was knackered in the morning after her late night but at least she was quiet and didn't need me! :)

[buggie]

I'm due no.2 in Nov so right with you on the knackered-ness & shortened fuse!

As part of my job I went to a sleep seminar with the guys behind Millpond sleep training &

they showed how what often causes the hyper-alertness is the adrenaline which in a weird fight or flight way decides they must do all they can to stay awake! Found myself with a bit more sympathy once I realised & could see it in Bugglet at the following bedtime.

[snowboarder]

Sorry haven't read it all fully - does she nap? My youngest was similar until I banned daytime sleep....and hey presto...(he's also in a cot but would def escape if not!)

[jennyh]

She sometimes naps and sometimes doesn't. On days when she doesn't nap it's generally easier to get her to sleep as she's knackered but then she wakes during the evening and can't get into a deep sleep and is very upset at being awake! When she does nap she isn't tired until very late so isn't ready for bed! I must say I find it very hard to fit a nap in these days as she prob isn't tired enough till 2ish which is too late, even with a short nap she would still stay up until 9-10!

Congrats to you too buggie, I'm intrigued by your findings - could you explain any further ? I would love to understand more from her perspective...how do I reduce the adrenalin??? A big dose of piriton???

[snowboarder]

Yes - from 2-3 is hard - they kind of need a sleep but it dramatically affects bedtime. We did have the nighttime waking too - but it seems to have settled down after a couple of weeks of no-nap....

[mima08]

Hiya - my sympathy, you must be knackered! (and congratulations on imminent arrival!).

One thing that works sometimes with us (i.e. more often than not but not 100%) is to build up to whatever I want LO to do over the course of time. E.g. Bedtime I will start mentioning that it is time for a bath & bed about 1hr before I actually want him to go, and repeat it in various scenarios every 5min. Yes, it is repetitive. I'll say things like "in x time it's time for a bath, then stories & bed", "we have y time left before bath, then bedtime". The key seems to be to repeat, repeat, repeat...

hope some of this is useful

[buggie]

Jennyh - unfortunately there weren't any big hints on reducing adrenaline apart from the obv - consistent wind down routine. Anecdotally it rang true with the amount of head injuries I'd see in Paeds ED where the history began "it was/was coming up to bedtime but they were so full of beans and running around, but then they tripped & hit their head on the table/door frame/bed post"!

[Saffron]

Try making bedtime later? I know it runs counterintuitive to a lot of what we're commonly told about sleep, but if you've tried all the common wisdom, try something uncommon. Whenever I've tried to put my little girl down earlier, it's always been a disaster. Yes, it's tiring for me to put her down later, but not as tiring as fighting to put her down earlier!

Also, maybe if you're moving soon, don't struggle too much with changing sleep patterns now. Just go with the flow, because everything is really going to change when you move house! Perhaps a good idea to have a short consultation with a sleep consultant before you move, so you can have a sleep strategy in place for the new home? This would be a natural time to break old sleep styles and aim for new bedtime associations. There is a anthropological shift towards more independent sleep between 2-4 years old. Maybe what appears to be her being "needy" at bedtime is just her searching for an affirmation that you'll always be there when she needs you. She might need that affirmation to be fully supported before she feels confident to make the transition to more independent sleep. Good luck! xx

[Bellenden Belle]

That's so interesting Buggie about andrenaline. Even with Baby Belle that's really clear to see - he can be tired all day, but perks up no end and is full of beans at six ish. Daddy often does fifteen minutes of "wrestle time" - very physical, lots of running about, swinging him about, exhausting him (and daddy to be honest). We do that before we start any bedtime routine... gets it all out of the system.

[SE22mum]

mmm, sounds familiar. my son has always hated going to sleep, and still now at 7 he says he hates it every night - even though now he goes down very easily. i ask him why, and he says it's boring and scary.

when he was around 2 it used to take ages to get him off as he would fight it so much. in the end, i used to get him ready for bed at a normal sort of time, ie bath and pyjamas, and then not start actually going to bed until quite a bit later. i would just let him play or else we'd read lots of books. i figured i would rather spend an hour chilling out with him in a pleasant environment than spend an hour telling him to go to sleep!

he wasn't in a cot though, but a mattress on the floor....so when it really was bed-time we would just both get in his bed, or sometimes my bed, and we'd both "go to sleep" (and sometimes we really did both go to sleep!) I know some people prefer kids to get used to sleeping in their own bed and on their own, but I found this would take about 10 minutes, and then I would hop out and get on with the rest of the evening. now, age 7, he still likes me to lie down next to him for a few minutes as he drifts off to sleep - and I really enjoy it. I like feeling that he goes to sleep feeling secure and loved.

[Fuschia]

Yeah, I was going to suggest just embracing it

Lie down together and cuddle

The fighting night time thing isn't so much fighting the end of playing, or fighting skeep, it's fighting letting go of you ...

Listen to the archers with headphones on your phone and snuggle in the dark?

Try bit to fret about stuff you should be doing

Just allocate 15-20 minutes to lying quietly .. No talking

[wellieboot]

I had a pretty similar issue with mine (though there were night waking problems too - horrendous!). I ended up using Nic Watson from child Sleep Soltuons (www.childsleepsolutions.co.uk). She was a godsend and helped us get everything sorted, can't recommend her highly enough...

Good luck x

[sbarry]

Apologies I haven't read all replies but sticker chart and bribes I mean rewards worked well at that age to us.

Or a "sleep fairy" who only came and left a chocolate button (just one!) for children who went to bed nicely.

Once I clicks you can slowly reduce the treats to once a week then phase out. Or in reality use them for the next battle ;-)

[esme]

My 3 yr old does this when unsettled - e.g. this week after coming back from a week on holiday (where he had us all to himself)... All I can say is my sympathy is with you, mine thankfully reads to himself after getting up a cpl of times and trying it on (after I have read a few books to him). Try to ignore screaming or if you do respond then be firm and a bit cross (so she knows you're cross about her screaming and it's not a solution to her getting her way). SO hard sometimes, I even told my son to shut up the other morning as so tired/stressed, he scrunched his cute little face up and said "mummy doooon't say that to me" ;)

[jennyh]

Thanks everyone. I've tried various bedtimes, if she naps then sometimes it's not until 9ish, often not asleep till 9.30-10 in extreme cases...has its own problems as end up with a tired girl the next day. If she doesn't nap then usually into her room for books at 7pm as its such a long day and she's exhausted (albeit wired!)

I would love to just give into it and enjoy the cuddles but can't help feeling its not sustainable and I dont want her to find it really upsetting when I can't do it any longer (particularly when new baby comes). I've been going in and stroking her to sleep which is nice time when shes calmed and not crying. but the result is that when she wakes in the night it is a constant chorus of 'mummmyyyyyyy' - 11-12.30 last night and first thing this morning, husband unable to do anything to settle her. Also my husband needs to be able to put her to bed sometimes plus it would be nice to occasionally have her gran do it, with work alone I am often not back I time, let alone I actually manage any sort if social life ;)

On the nap front - can I do a quick poll of who dropped nap at what age??? She has refused nap last two days, not sure how I feel about it as I do think she needs it but not much I can do!

I think I'm going to consult Nicola at child sleep solutions as I feel that it is her feelings around bedtime that I need to understand, if she does need more cuddles from me etc, if its something she is scared of. I really want to do whatever it takes for her sake a much as mine, is so upsetting feeling she hates bed so much that she fears it at all waking moments!!!!

[Fuschia]

The nap dropping stage is a difficult one

I do think, though, that on days she doesn't nap, you might think about bed by 6, shorten the routine considerably and just go for getting her in to bed before she goes through exhaustion to the manic stage

My little one is 31m and naps a couple of times a week (followed by bed about 9, aargh) but on non nap days he is falling over by 5pm, and goes down in seconds if I get him in to bed at 6

He would go to bed at 5, even, but there is a risk he will get woken by the rest of the herd of noisy wildebeest when they go to bed and leap up as if it was just a late nap he had

[alibo]

The longer days mean that we naturally want to stay up later my 3 year old is going to bed later about ten before he falls asleep he still has one hours sleep sometimes 2 during the day eats a very big lunch at twelve the sleep straight after / he is at nursery 5 days a week so the routine is embedded. At the weekend he wakes between 7 and 8 and goes to sleep at 7 but no nap during the day , I have noticed again that this is later than in winter when he was shattered and falling asleep at 6. There are some nights when I need him to go to bed so that I can work and I think he senses my stress somehow and starts playing up, they are extremely clever and still want that baby closeness at times

[emza78]

Hiya,

Lily (27 months) hasn't had a nap at home for probably about 6 months now. I give her dinner at 430pm, bath at 515 and she's asleep by 6, I wonder if Bess is overtired by 7pm? Sounds like she could be similar to Lily in that she gets more wired the tireder she gets and that makes it even harder to get her down. I'd try a really early bedtime and no nap, it felt unnatural and almost too good to be true at first but it still works now!

[oimissus]

Miss Oi (3 and a half) dropped her nap around a year ago, maybe a bit more. If she naps now (which would be in the car these days) it will put bedtime back by at least an hour (even if it's only for 20 mins). We have had to ask her nursery to stop putting her down for a nap.

We have gone through phases of reluctance to go to bed, none lasting 6 months though, poor you! Tonight was a struggle, because she had fallen asleep a couple of times in our ludicrously hot (no a/c aaarrggghhh!) car, and she insisted on wearing her winter pyjamas so obviously she was boiling. Eventually she asked to wear her summer ones and is now asleep, thank God. Generally we have a later rather than earlier bedtime (8.30 is usual) but she doesn't wake much before 7.30 so I think at her age that's fine.