Going to pot

[Spartacus]

The pot holes are getting worse, which is dangerous for all road users.

I saw a recent item on the BBC news about one resident, not local, putting up home made warning signs and on social media some people have also put items in the pot holes and photographed them to draw attention to the problem.

With all the extra revenue being taken from drivers by Southwark at the moment (LTN fines, CPZ revenue) surly they should be on top of the potholes, but alas they aren't.

Therefore do we need some sort of publicity campaign to shame Southwark into action ? 

 

 

BBC News - 'Daventry Banksie' shares inspiration for pothole campaign
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-68735580

(Sorry its a mirror post but this is ducks in potholes) 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cheeky-local-takes-matters-hands-32386337

Edited April 12, 2024 by Spartacus

[malumbu]

I remember thirty years ago media articles about the pothole crisis.  I'm not sure whether it is any better or worse than then.  Is there an objective measure?  Not that it is not an issue, but feels like flavour of the month at the moment.

 

RACs pothole index would suggest that there was a reduction in pothole related damage over the ten years 2009 to 2019, although the pothole index is based on a relative number (proportion of call outs due to pothole damage) rather than absolute.  And this was a time when I expect as cars became more reliable there were less call outs for old school mechanical breakdowns, as opposed to can't change my tyre, batter flat or wrong fuel - common causes now.  Pot hole breakdowns increased last year, and oddly during 2020, yet either side were up and down.  But there are just too many variables, including excessive wet, and excessive cold.  And car weight has gone up, in particularly due to heavier vehicles (SUVs).  Ford cutting small car production and the Volvo/Merc/JLR/BMW continuing to persuade many they have to have a large SUV as we transition to an electric fleet wont make things any better.

I expect that some of the current interest is due to the upcoming local authority and Mayoral elections, as a stick to beat Labour

 

RAC publish an annual report on motorists' issues, warning, some of us use this as evidence that there are a number of issues with motorists including attitudes to speeding https://www.rac.co.uk/report-on-motoring

Edited April 12, 2024 by malumbu

[Penguin68]

The number of real SUVs (Sports Utility Vehicles - meaning a modified car body on a truck chassis) is exaggerated (understandably) by a large number of cars now having bodies styled to look like classic SUVs - but in fact being made on a car chassis - these are no heavier (but see below) than the estate cars and people carriers they, in the main, replaced, equally 'bulky' but in a different way. Additional weight is also given where cars are hybrid or electric - because of the additional battery weights.

The impression we all have, helped by the all pervasive Nissan Qashqai, is that everywhere there are SUVs, but that isn't really so. More modern cars in general are heavier than their predecessors because of the additional safety etc. builds required of regulation. But this isn't a 'chelsea tractor' issue. It's about preferred looks and style.

What I have noticed, and commented on elsewhere, is that actual repair of pot holes, when it is undertaken, is very ineffective., with them reappearing very quickly. A man with a bucket of tar and a spade to knock it down really isn't sufficient.

Edited April 12, 2024 by Penguin68

[Spartacus]

From personal experience, the potholes this year are worse than ever before, what causes them isn't the question, its more what can be done to repair the existing ones to prevent accidents to all road users ? 

As I mentioned, there are revenues being generated but not spent on fixing potholes and how do we get or shame the council into fixing them? 🤔 

[spider69]

Tell them cyclists will injure themselves. Normally works when the advantage is for them

[malumbu]

Cars are getting heavier, Sustrans report (green perspective): https://www.sustrans.org.uk/media/12439/why-are-cars-getting-bigger-a-deep-dive-into-how-uk-regulations-are-enabling-car-size-growth.pdf

RAC report (motorists' perspective) : https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/calls-for-changes-to-uk-car-parks-to-deal-with-weight-of-modern-cars/

There was a jump in the 90s due to changes to type approval (structural in passenger safety and technology), more increase in physical size and the introduction of NCAP standards.   Try driving an early 90s Citroen AX, less than half the weight of a typical modern car, great power to weight ratio, you develop great arm muscles steering it, and leg muscles braking, and it would all but disintegrate on impact with a wall at 70mph.

This cyclist has learned to live with potholes, not love them but live with them.  Slippy road surface more of an issue for me but that is another story.

 

[Spartacus]

And mal, yet again, brings it back to cause, not solution.

@malumbu whats your ideas to get the council to fix them,  and banning cars isnt a fix (although it does stop new ones appearing) 🤣

[Moovart]

Do report any that you see.  Sometimes it works!

 

https://www.fillthathole.org.uk/

[Rockets]

Potholes are caused by water getting into tarmac and then freezing and expanding and breaking up the road surface....but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story about increases in car weight.....roads are designed for buses and lorries and they weigh far more than an SUV...#makesyouthink

[vladi]

2 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Potholes are caused by water getting into tarmac and then freezing and expanding and breaking up the road surface....but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story about increases in car weight.....roads are designed for buses and lorries and they weigh far more than an SUV...#makesyouthink

The freezing theory is just not appropriate here in London however your point about water penetration is correct. The tar top layer of the road is designed to act as a seal to prevent water penetrating into the lower strata  of the road base. The top tar layer deteriorates over time but cracks in it are primarily generated by vehicles with high axle loadings e.g. trucks and buses. These high loadings cause deformation which results in cracking of the tar barrier. Water penetrates then via the cracks into the sub-base and the sub-base is degraded. Result = potholes. No frost is required.

[malumbu]

My original question was are roads getting worse or is it our perception. I expect the latter.  I was introduced to the term evidence based policy 30 years ago.  I thought surely all policy is evidence based. I'm still waiting for the evidence that pot holes are getting worse.  Solutions?  Lighter vehicles, less driving, higher taxes - indirect/general or direct.  Road user charging would be the best way forward.  

[Rockets]

Or perhaps the council just needs to get out and repair them.....the longer they are left the worse they get...

[first mate]

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/rac-pothole-index-statistics-data-and-projections/

 

Not the best evidence but certainly indicates matters are not improving.

Can CPZ and other council collected car- related revenue be ploughed back into road, pavement repair and upkeep? Is there info on this for Southwark? Surely this would be a better use of those funds than creation of areas like Dulwich Village Sq/ junction? 

[malumbu]

My first chart was from the RAC but I explained that there are too many variables concerning their pothole index to demonstrate any sort of trend ie getting better or worse.  The RAC also has a snap shot rather than a series of annual returns from local authorities.

Lots of rhetoric from government and 5 Billion pounds.  Questions need, as ever, to be asked of them. Let's face it, it is an election year and they are doing everything they can to get the motorists' vote.

Enforcement penalties do not go to the highway maintenance budget.  I think that is right.  But as aware motorists with excellent driving standards why are we still infringing rules and the law?  Surely the pot is diminishing and will ultimately just cover enforcement costs 

Edited April 13, 2024 by malumbu

[tiddles]

Coming down Dog kennel hill on a bike is dreadful. Grove  vale is awful tho a couple of the biggies have been filled in

[Earl Aelfheah]

Pot holes feel like they’re becoming more of an issue (based purely on my perception, don’t know what data there is). Even worse outside London imo. I suspect as Mal says, heavier vehicles are part of the problem (both SUVs, but also EVs which are generally heavier than ‘conventional’ cars), but regardless the council need to be more on it. 

You can use the fixmystreet app to report them (and other street maintenance issues). 

Edited April 28, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah