Party wall dispute - what now?

[Kai_63]

I live in a flat. My downstairs neighbour is having various work done including:

Chimney breast removal (mine would stay)

Internal wall removal (it's a supporting wall and mine is above)

Knocking down of external walls that support mine and adding extension.

He says his surveyor said this doesn't need a party wall survey because we don't share any party walls. Three surveyors I spoke to said the chimney breasts at a minimum do (party structure).

Is there specific law I can quote on this?

And if not, what do I do next?

(Flats are leasehold, he has permission from them for external work, not sure about internal). He doesn't have council planning consent for the chimney or internal walls.

[Moovart]

Chimney breast removal definitely requires party wall agreement and if yours above is not being removed it will require steels to support the chimney breast above.  You should consult your own party wall surveyor and serve notices on your neighbour and they will be liable for the cost of your surveyor.  Also worth contacting the southwark building regs inspector for advice as removing a load bearing wall also requires steels to support the walls above and will require building regs. Has your neighbour shown you the plans to show how they are going to support your walls above?

[KateS]

He’ll need to apply to building control if he’s removing a chimney breast, as that has to be signed off once the work is done. Make sure the joists for your floor are extended to full width of the room once the chimney breast is removed. Ours weren’t (by the previous owner when they removed the chimney breast in the kitchen) and the floor above was dipping by a few inches. 

[Kai_63]

Thank you, he's pretty adamant a party wall agreement isn't needed so no chance of getting plans, he's been very cagey about what's being done. I've asked for the specific clause in the Party Wall Act that suggests he doesn't because I'm pretty worried.

Is it just the chimney breasts that would fall under the act? He's insisting the others don't count as party walls.

[Happyme5]

Sounds like your neighbour is trying to bully you into  to be compliant and stay quiet.  You really don't have any choice but to contact Southwark regarding building alteration planning permission.  But also try to find your own surveyor asap.  It might cost you now.  But if you don't it could well really get expensive and cause issues with any potential selling in the future.  Don't feel bad about standing up for yourself and your future.....

Edited June 7, 2024 by Happyme5
Typo

[Smiley_blue_1234]

We used Anstey Horne following work done by our neighbours and they were very helpful. Maybe they could provide some guidance? Good luck.

https://www.ansteyhorne.co.uk/about/team

 

 

[Kai_63]

Thank you for the advice. I'm definitely not going to be bullied but it's always tricky when you live next to people and know you still have to deal with them after you go nuclear on them!

I think I'll see what the freeholder says first, they might not be aware of the internal work and it can affect building insurance. 

The council said I could report him so will contact them if all else fails this week, along with my own surveyor.

 

[beigemartin]

Freeholder is responsible for the structure so should definitely have been cleared.  Almost certain that all leaseholders should also have been served party wall notices.  

Definitely speak to freeholder and surveyor... if that doesn't convince neighbour to comply then an injunction through court is probably the next step

[Kai_63]

Thank you, freeholder has given consent to the external extension but I'm not sure about the chimneys or internal walls. Given there's no sign of council approval for the latter two, I suspect not!

 

I am the other leaseholder and I agree, it's bonkers that I'm not. If it comes to it I will try and get the freeholder to make them give me a notice. 

[beigemartin]

 

Perhaps you should also speak to your insurer too.... in your shoes I would worry that not doing enough to property's protection would make me negligent in the event of damage.

[Kai_63]

Thank you, yes I'm going to contact the freeholder about the building insurance.

[Happyme5]

Good luck and look after you and your families future.  X let us know what happens if you can. 

[Jellybeanz]

It's usually if your property is adjoining or very close to the property where work is being done. As others have stated, chimney breast removal and structural walls removal definitely require your consent and your neighbour will be responsible for paying your party wall surveyors fees. They probably don't want to pay additional money but that's the law so the law is on your side. It's a safeguard at the end of the day and if you want to quote the law at your neighbour to make them take responsibility I would get a solicitors letter (few hundred pounds but money well spent as property worth a lot and a lot can go wrong with building work so best to cover yourself).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet you may find useful 

[Happyme5]

16 minutes ago, Jellybeanz said:

It's usually if your property is adjoining or very close to the property where work is being done. As others have stated, chimney breast removal and structural walls removal definitely require your consent and your neighbour will be responsible for paying your party wall surveyors fees. They probably don't want to pay additional money but that's the law so the law is on your side. It's a safeguard at the end of the day and if you want to quote the law at your neighbour to make them take responsibility I would get a solicitors letter (few hundred pounds but money well spent as property worth a lot and a lot can go wrong with building work so best to cover yourself).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet you may find useful 

 

The very best advice.   People often use aggressive behaviour to hide their wrong doing.   A solicitors letter will give them a little reminder of what is right.

[bonaome]

Are their plans up on the Southwark Planning Portal?

https://planning.southwark.gov.uk/online-applications/

This should show exactly what they are planning to do.

Permitted development doesn't apply to flats. To build an extension to a flat you must apply for planning permission.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/flats-and-maisonettes/extending-ground-floor-flat

Therefore the plans should be there.

 

[Kai_63]

Thank you all for all your help, no, there are no plans on the portal for the internal work e.g. chimney breasts or removal of internal wall (but there are for the external) so I have options to contact the council if necessary too.

 

[Penguin68]

It is particularly important that you have a survey done before the work commences (which should be paid for by your neighbour) - this allows a 'before and after' picture to identify any issues caused by your neighbour's work - which again must be remedied at his expense. As this all must be paid for by your neighbour (under law) it may be an acceptable risk to commission your own survey (again your right to choose the surveyor although your neighbour can offer his own surveyor or structural engineer, which is normally cheaper for him, if you are prepared to trust that). 

You might additionally, although the surveyor should also do this, photograph any areas in your property you believe may be at risk - new cracks in plasterwork are his responsibility to remedy as well.

Your neighbour is quite wrong to suggest that the work he is intending does not fall into the party wall legislation - and informing both Southwark and the ground landlord of his intentions is a good first step. As others have said, a solicitor's letter to remind him of his legal obligations might be an expense worth bearing. The potential damage to his and your property could be irreparable. Other than choice of surveyor (his or yours) there are no other areas of negotiation - the party wall legislation is surprisingly clear on this, I believe.

[Pugwash]

Our neighbour had a loft conversion and we signed a party wall agreement - there was no encroachment on our property at all.  

His property is leasehold with Southwark being the freeholder, also the ground floor flat is a Southwark tenancy and they were notified.

I would definitely get building regs involved.

[Kai_63]

1 hour ago, Penguin68 said:

It is particularly important that you have a survey done before the work commences (which should be paid for by your neighbour) - this allows a 'before and after' picture to identify any issues caused by your neighbour's work - which again must be remedied at his expense. As this all must be paid for by your neighbour (under law) it may be an acceptable risk to commission your own survey (again your right to choose the surveyor although your neighbour can offer his own surveyor or structural engineer, which is normally cheaper for him, if you are prepared to trust that). 

You might additionally, although the surveyor should also do this, photograph any areas in your property you believe may be at risk - new cracks in plasterwork are his responsibility to remedy as well.

Your neighbour is quite wrong to suggest that the work he is intending does not fall into the party wall legislation - and informing both Southwark and the ground landlord of his intentions is a good first step. As others have said, a solicitor's letter to remind him of his legal obligations might be an expense worth bearing. The potential damage to his and your property could be irreparable. Other than choice of surveyor (his or yours) there are no other areas of negotiation - the party wall legislation is surprisingly clear on this, I believe.

Thank you. Based on what's happened so far, I'd prefer my own surveyor for a totally independent view.

I really just want peace of mind to ensure the work is done properly. It's not in my interest to delay it unnecessarily but ironically, if my neighbour continues down this road, i will delay things further!

 

I'll speak to the council and freeholder on Monday.

 

1 hour ago, Pugwash said:

Our neighbour had a loft conversion and we signed a party wall agreement - there was no encroachment on our property at all.  

His property is leasehold with Southwark being the freeholder, also the ground floor flat is a Southwark tenancy and they were notified.

I would definitely get building regs involved.

Thank you!

[intexasatthe moment]

How are you getting on Kai ? Any help from freeholder or Southwark ?

[intexasatthe moment]

You did say that your neighbour was being cagey and I'm wondering if , for instance , he's doing a partial chimney breast removal rather than the whole thing and that he thinks this doesn't need a party wall agreement. 

[Kai_63]

Sorry I've been away for a few days! 

The neighbour has finally agreed to provide a notice. I had to quote the goverment website on my texts to him. And I've since spoken to his surveyor. The surveyor said they weren't entirely sure if an agreement was needed due to the way the chimney breasts were being removed but they've checked and they do. Sounds like backtracking to me but at least they're playing ball!

I did also say that if they were removing/cutting internal and external structural walls and adding beams that also counts as party structures (as it affects their ceiling/my floor - so let's see).

Surveyor's coming over to introduce himself tomorrow, a notice will be issued this week and then my surveyor can be appointed.

The freeholder hasn't come back on the building insurance question yet but I chased this week. It's all in writing though.

Thank you all for the help you've provided. I have a feeling this neighbour will cut corners given half the chance so knowing an agreeement will be in place is a huge help.

[Happyme5]

Brilliant news. It isn't something you should have had to do.  But I am delighted that the neighbour now realises that they can't stonewall (soz) you on the issues.  And I totally agree that their surveyor sounds a bit dodge.  So you and your legal team  will have to keep on top of them.   Brilliant job.  👍🤞👍🤞👍🤞

[CPR Dave]

Well done. Always good with neighbours of you can get things done both by the book and amicably. We still have to live side by side at the end of at all!