How oversubscribed are the local schools? Will they be able to take on students who are currently privately-educated?

[dreamaholic]

One of the headline Starmer kept talking about is charging VAT for private schools. This would make private school fees unaffordable for many who are not mega-rich, pushing more students back to the state education system. Would the state schools be able to take in the extra students?

Many schools are already over-subscribed, are there enough schools, classrooms and teachers to take on the extra students? My fear is that the extra VAT they get is not going to be enough to provide education for more students under the state system, as well as the additional 6500 specialist teachers they claim they will provide.

[mumtoone]

Lambeth has closed two secondary schools this year and plans to close 2-4 primary schools in the coming years because they can’t fill up the spaces, local schools are not oversubscribed and can accommodate new wave of students and they will be very welcome. Vacancies are across all years. It will really help schools to get full funding once full so public schools will benefit from this.

[vladi]

Charging VAT on private schools is totally out of step with other countries in Europe.  Here is picture in the Europe:-

.

1. Germany: Private education fees are usually exempt from VAT.

2. France: Private education fees are typically exempt from VAT, especially if the institution is recognized by the state.

3. Spain: Private education services provided by recognized educational establishments are exempt from VAT.

4. Italy: Educational services provided by recognized institutions are exempt from VAT.

5. Netherlands: Private education services are exempt from VAT if the institution is recognized by the government.

6. Belgium: Educational services provided by recognized institutions are exempt from VAT.

7. Sweden: Private education is generally exempt from VAT.

8. Denmark: Most educational services are exempt from VAT, but there are exceptions depending on the type of service.

9. Ireland: Private education fees are exempt from VAT.

10. Portugal: Private education is generally exempt from VAT.

11. Austria: Private education services are generally exempt from VAT if they are recognized by the state.

12. Finland: Private education services are exempt from VAT if they are provided by recognized institutions.

13. Norway: Although not an EU member, Norway exempts private education services from VAT.

Make of that as you may!

 

[CPR Dave]

The private schools round here don't take very many local kids. Their pupils come from far and wide so it shouldn't be much of an issue. 

The reason state schools are closing in central London is because councils have made it impossible to have a normal family life with all their road closures and charges. 

People with children  just get fed up with it and move out of London.

[dreamaholic]

Take Charter North Dulwich as an example, 

The furthest distance we offered a place for our year 7 September 2023 was 921 meters.
As of the 1st March 2024 the furthest distance we have offered a place for September 2024 intake is currently at 827m.

If private schools become more unaffordable for parents who are not mega-rich, some kids will have to move from private to local, and it will only be even harder to get into schools that are already over-subscribed...

[alice]

If Pupils just attended their nearest school it would stop all this mad traffic on the roads. 

[northernmonkey]

Again on this - fees at local privates have been increasing circa 10% per annum recently and it hasn't stopped them being massively oversubscribed so this notion that there will be a mass exodus is a weird take on it. 

2.  The Labour plans for adding VAT have been around for a while - so if we are looking at secondary age kids, realistically the youngest year not to have known about it before putting their child in private school is year 10 now.  There is often movement to state at sixth form anyway, so perhaps only 1 year to find the difference. 

For those at primary, similar story  - v few 4+ places locally anyway comparatively so those at 7+ will be getting to year 6 now and could apply to secondaries. 

Using Charter North as a comparator isn't really reasonable - yes its oversubscribed.  Some children who go to private now also wouldn't get in - but there are other Southwark schools which aren't over subscribed so there would be educational provision. 

[malumbu]

Gosh a discussion.  Just like we used to have on the Lounge.  We are well passed the bulge so there is less pressure on places and sadly some primary schools closing.  There will no doubt continue to demand for the 'better' state schools, like the system we have created, or not.  And I don't.

And on this subject speaking to someone this week who is spending getting on for a million education.  I didn't ask about tightening the belt, foregoing the chalet in Verbier, or taking out a second mortgage.  So what would be a further £200k?

A personal, subjective, and influenced by my own predjudices and preconceptions.  But you can guess where I stand on VAT

 

[mrwb]

Pretty certain  EU countries can't charge VAT on education due to the EU VAT directive mandating it. I hope we appreciate the irony, anyway. 

I think there is plenty of space in local schools, the birth rate has collapsed in the last 10 years.

[vladi]

53 minutes ago, mrwb said:

Pretty certain  EU countries can't charge VAT on education due to the EU VAT directive mandating it.

You are correct. Please read my post which proves that VAT is not charged in most EU countries.

[malumbu]

Birth rate collapses sounds a bit like Armageddon.  It's a mixture of a decline following a bulge, where many schools had to increase intake, and families moving out of the capital due to high cost of housing.  Now that is an irony, that only wealthy families, many who can afford private schooling, can afford to live in many parts of London.

[lollol]

Southwark and Lambeth may have some spaces but this is not the case of other London boroughs nearby particularly at secondary level. Also this is not just a London issue. There are many regions throughout the UK that have no school places available (eg Kent due to new housing developments, rural areas, Surrey, Guildford, Edinburgh etc).

Just because you feel it doesn’t affect you, does not mean it’s right. 

You also need to consider the proportion of foreign students in many of the private schools in the area which distorts the impression that local people can pay private school fees and suck up an additional £4-5k per child and per year.

And sadly, the psychological and emotional impact on children is not even being discussed.

[northernmonkey]

You asked 'how over subscribed are local schools' - not what is the picture nationally.  This is the East Dulwich Forum.  The answer for East Dulwich and surrounding is that some schools are very over subscribed, others have places. 

Not sure your point re 'foreign students' is really hitting either - parents have been finding the fee increases without mass exodus so realistically not sure that it will be the issue you see.  Local people often can't afford the fees at all - this isn't a reason to keep them VAT free though either. 

[malumbu]

Psychological and emotional?  With this in mind why would any parent move to a different area due, for example, a change of job or being relocated