Fines for parking in loading bay for 2 minutes - appeal?

[Naiada]

My partner parked in a loading bay in Orpheus Street SE5 to get some heavy items from Cowling & Wilcox Art Supplies for his business. The whole transaction took less than 5 minutes. He came back, loaded and left - with a fine for parking in a loading bay “without loading within 2 minutes”!! 

He made an online appeal but it was turned down- letter attached.

 

I think the main points he contested are;

 

• You can’t walk to C&W, pick up a box and walk back in 2 minutes, so how can ‘evidence of loading be seen’ in that time?
• They were not ‘general domestic shopping.’
• They were bulky and heavy.
• The vehicle was moved immediately on returning to it with the goods.
• So, he met ALL the criteria they have stipulated as reasons for issuing the PCN.

If anyone has successfully or unsuccessfully  appealed against a similar loading bay fine do let me know, thanks! 

[malumbu]

You have all the information you need to appeal, I expect you have a receipt for the items and can demonstrate that they were heavy.

[Moovart]

Consider taking it to tribunal.  In my experience, Southwark seems to reject appeals against PCNs even when the PCN has been incorrectly issued.  But when you tell them you are taking it to tribunal and start the process, they then cancel the PCN.  You have to be sure that the PCN was incorrectly issued.

[ianr]

I've a few points to make, but one initial question.  Had he bought the items online, using their Click & Collect facility?

[Naiada]

thanks for the comments so far.

IanR - in answer, No he bought the items at the shop, at the time- not by click and collect  which we realise may be an issue in a dispute but the whole transaction from leaving the car, buying items and bringing back to car and leaving took less than 5 minutes.

My instinct is not to appeal and end up getting charged more, but he is keen to pursue as it's ridiculous to give a total time limit of 2 minutes!

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

It's not a total time limit of 2 minutes. The loading bay in Orpheus St allows for up to an hour of loading or unloading - but you've got to be actively doing it.

It's 2 minutes the CEO hung about and didn't see anyone loading or unloading.

[Pugwash]

I would appeal. When working I had a Southwark wide parking permit as my job as a Southwark employee took me all over the borough. Myself and colleague were parked outside our office as usual and got a PCN. We appealed and won and it turned out that the parking warden misread the initials on our permits AS (all Southwark) and took it to be that we were incorrectly parked in a Residents Bay.

[fishboy]

I can't recommend this site highly enough -

https://www.ftla.uk/index.php

It's a group of  legal people who give (free!) advice on these issues. Often they can spot where councils haven't followed correct procedure, which can be grounds for appeal. 

Have a search for similar cases on there (there's usually an offence code which helps) and you may find someone in the same situation who had a successful appeal.

One big issue with many councils is the information given online about how much your fine currently is, and what date it will increase - it's often incorrect, and tribunals have regularly upheld appeals because of it. Lewisham recently declined to contest my appeal at tribunal, mainly because of this issue. 

It's definitely worth checking out some other cases on this website, and asking for advice. It's so frustrating when the fine far outweighs the 'crime'...

[pablogrande]

Unfortunately I don't think you have grounds for appeal, loading only is very specific in usage, you need to be constantly loading rather than popping into a shop, paying etc it's like that for a reason, probably have to take it on the chin and pay the early 'discount'

[malumbu]

Specific points

From my understanding if you challenge a penalty notice you should be allowed to keep the discount if you are unsuccessful

I've not challenged one for years (it was Bromley), the outcome was my concerns were reasonable but Bromley had acted within the regs/powers and I was duly allowed to pay at the discounted rate. 

But is it worth the time/hassle?  Particularly as pointed out above you are not in a good position.

General comments

Fair and proportional.  You could argue that this is neither, but you would have to take this up with government

Discretion - how much discretion should the enforcement officer have given you?  You could complain to Southwark but I'd expect a one liner back.  And again to government.

There is a general point on resources that most things have been cut back - environmental health, planning, trading standards and highways, so it is difficult to engage with an individuals in government even if you can get contact details.  I've gone through LinkedIn and gone high level for example on rogue traders but still not got a response.  A few years ago I'd occasionally report builders working outside acceptable hours, tried this recently and found that the team was half the size - even worse if you contact HMRC who were wonderfully helpful in times gone by.  That's a fact of life not a complaint.  Having said that the TFL Oyster people are great.

I believe that fixed penalties are too high in London but best thing to do is avoid them so I am much more cautious than I was maybe twenty years ago when I would have gone off on one.  I do have a massive bee on my bonnet about the lack of enforcement after normal hours and it is open season to park on pavements, double yellows and the like.  And also that enforcement officers concentrate on the streets with the most return, which is understandable of course, but it pees me off when people park on the zig zags on Forest Hill Road.  I once reported a potential crime on Perry Vale, threatening to two police officers doing nothing in a car that I was going to damage cars parked illegally due to an event at the Banqueting House.  They told me it was nothing to do with them.  Cheers......

I've gone into Lounge territory.

[alice]

A threat  only becomes a crime if the receiver of that  threat honestly believes that threat is going to take place in your case it does not seem so. 
 

[Forest Hill Climber]

  On 19/02/2025 at 15:15, Pugwash said:

I would appeal. When working I had a Southwark wide parking permit as my job as a Southwark employee took me all over the borough. Myself and colleague were parked outside our office as usual and got a PCN. We appealed and won and it turned out that the parking warden misread the initials on our permits AS (all Southwark) and took it to be that we were incorrectly parked in a Residents Bay.

Expand  

I appealed against a fine issued by Southwark, and won. The adjudicator was businesslike, but also mentioned that several cases had come to him caught out by the same confusing signage. 

 

Is there any other parking that could reasonably have been used? Does the shop advise where to park?  It sounds as though the time in the bay was a reasonable use. Even if you lose, I doubt that Southwark can increase the original charge. If you are going to appeal, don't delay. Take pictures of the scene if you think that might help, also provide the weight of the goods if that supports your case.

[Sue]

Might Cowling & Wilcox have any relevant info which could help your case?

I bought an easel there recently. Now I'm very glad we lugged it home on the bus rather than collecting it by car, particularly as the shop took some time packing it up!

Hope you get things resolved. It seems an odd place to have a loading bay with those restrictions if there's nowhere immediately adjacent to it to load from? 

Edited February 25 by Sue

[Earl Aelfheah]

  On 20/02/2025 at 10:09, pablogrande said:

Unfortunately I don't think you have grounds for appeal, loading only is very specific in usage, you need to be constantly loading rather than popping into a shop, paying etc it's like that for a reason, probably have to take it on the chin and pay the early 'discount'

Expand  

I think Pablogrande is right here. You can't stop in a loading bay in order to go into a shop and buy something - even if you're going to load it into your car afterwards. So unless there is confusing / non-compliant signage or some other grounds to appeal I suspect you're unlikely to overturn it.