South Circular roadworks - excessive disruption

[exdulwicher]

1 hour ago, Penguin68 said:

The actual amount of the road network that will need work is relatively short, again I’m guessing. At the most I’m assuming 200 yards on each of the three road segments leading from the junction itself – The Lordship Lane/ London Road sections and the A205 joining at right angles. Does it really take TFL contractors three and a half months to ‘fix’ 600 yards of roadway (if that)? 

I'd suggest you have two options.

1. Pop down there on Day 1, tell them that it can't possibly take them 3 months, stop lounging around, crack on and be done in a week you useless bunch of layabouts. It's just a bit of resurfacing and some painting after all. 

2. Email the project manager - the contact details are all in the letter - and demand an explanation of exactly how it can possibly take them this length of time since it is (apparently) just a week's job.

You may wish to outline your expertise in this area and examples of where similar schemes have been done in a week.

Do let us know the outcome!

[Spartacus]

Ohhh go for option 1, just take a few burly mates along to help encourage them finish quicker 

[malumbu]

Jumpers for goalposts.  

[Penguin68]

Tell you what, folks, if the three and a half months go by and there are sufficient people working properly on each day (and for a reasonable time during the day) then I'll apologise here to the TFL planners for my calumnies - but if there are working days when no one is, or not through the day, then maybe those who are upset by my predictions will apologise to me.

[Earl Aelfheah]

18 hours ago, jazzer said:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

How many near misses or fatalities have there been at that junction?

There has been roughly 30 casualties as a result of collisions around that junction in the last 2 years. It depends how narrowly you want to define the area you're interested in of course.

Based on data here

[Insuflo]

I really wasn’t going to add anything more to this thread but was on a bus delayed by an ignorant, selfish motorist impeding a bus lane when “London Traffic” by The Jam popped up on my iTunes. One of the recently departed Rick Butler’s finest drumming performances. But the lyrics by Bruce Foxton could have been written yesterday, rather than forty years back. Have a listen kids.

I am not a traffic engineer but before retirement I was a manager in various modes at TfL. I knew many engineers up to director level who were responsible for the TfL road network. They were capable and committed individuals who spent their entire careers trying to make the network run better. Traffic engineers were invariably car and driving enthusiasts similarly that top people at London Underground were always railway nerds. TfL Streets people would often find themselves in conflict with TfL Buses people over what should be prioritised.

They were Londoners who lived and worked in this city and saw and appreciated the benefits and disadvantages of their successes and failures in changing the TfL network. They introduced all kinds of improvements for drivers and pedestrians that simply don’t exist outside London and were often consulted by European, Asian and north American traffic management professionals for their expertise. 
 

They often had to defend their positions against political interference, as when Boris Johnson made the reintroduction of a morning northbound contra flow in the Blackwall Tunnel a manifesto pledge to please Bromley tories, despite the Met Police having ended it to prevent what they believed was a mass casualty incident waiting to happen. Reinstate the Blackwall contra flow or I’ll sack you, demanded Johnson: no, we will not endanger lives to please you and the Evening Standard, was the response of engineers at TfL Streets. They prevailed and now, thankfully, neither the Evening Standard or Boris Johnson exists to worry Londoners.

Late last century I worked for the Highways Agency dealing with customer service complaints by phone, email and letter. We were what was known in the media as “the Cones Hotline”. A pathetic, grey little man who had inadvertently become Prime Minister had decided that there was tabloid traction in getting pathetic, grey little men (it was only ever men) to complain to the Hghways Agency if they saw cones (and therefore roadworks) on the motorways.
Get the Great (always with a capital G) British people out looking for waste of our money! That’ll sort these shirkers out!
 

Cones out and no work taking place was always our principal complaint. So, I and a whole department of civil servants that had never existed before, spent lots of time and money wasting the time of traffic engineers who invariably had a totally sensible, pertinent and time tested explanation of why repairing 100 yards of the M6 requires 2 miles of lane closures and cones (vehicles cover a hell of a lot of ground at 70 mph). They could have just been getting on with their jobs (and the roads would be open quicker) instead of explaining things to me, so I could pander to Angry of Mayfair and Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. We used to call the regular complainants the “I pay your wages “ brigade. The Daily Mail, Express and Evening Standard also took up much of our time on slow news days. 
 

The point is Penguin 68, is that your opinions are based upon ignorance, anger and a notion that somebody somewhere is trying to get one over on you. It’s all rather childish, I think. I have no doubt that these works have been carefully planned with every effort to avoid disruption. And the local populace has been engaged with and considered, as is demonstrated by the hand delivered letter you received and the previous consultation exercise, which I presume you didn’t respond to.

Public servants are under attack in the USA and many parts of Europe. I really think that we need to consider how we use language and how we relate to those who serve us. Call out poor performance by all means. But please do so from an informed standpoint.

The bus lane has cleared! It was some bloke in a grey BMW. What’s the chances?

* NB: this lecture may have taken longer to write than my bus was delayed by that BMW lout but RIP Rick Butler.

 

Edited February 21 by Insuflo

[malumbu]

Thank you for your heartfelt post, based on your real experience.  I'm a technical person who has worked for the last 13 years in sustainable transport, including working with Highways Engineers, and analysts.  I've seen good government - both Labour and Tory, in my area but disappointment in Sunak's desperate and futile driver first policy and sadly Starmer's backtracking following the 'who really cares' Uxbridge result.

But  I am generally sick to the back teeth of people knocking professionals, particularly those like me who are passionate about making the world a better place.  It's like football fans always know better than managers 

Although the worst thing about this thread is the title 

Ps those parking in bus lanes winds me up, and I recall one car near to sacred Heart on Camberwell New Road that cumulatively added 100s of hours to bus times.  I understand that TfL left cars clamped as a deterrent rather than towing them straight away.

[Penguin68]

1 hour ago, Insuflo said:

as is demonstrated by the hand delivered letter you received and the previous consultation exercise, which I presume you didn’t respond to.

Didn't respond to as wasn't invited to. Neither was one of the shop owners in the stretch of road directly impacted, to whom this also came as a surprise. Had I been invited I would have supported the creation of safe crossing points for pedestrians. I doubt whether the 14-15 week time frame for works would have been mentioned. 

[ab29]

On 19/02/2025 at 14:41, Penguin68 said:

I've just received a note from TFL (I'm in Underhill) to say that access to the South Circular going West from Lordship Lane - and probably East as well (now virtually the only access since Dulwich Village was cut-off) is to be severely curtailed from the end of February to mid June so that the much sought after pedestrian crossing at the London Road/ A205 Junction can be installed. Taking 3 and a half months of disruption! Anywhere else in the world this would be a week's job.

I'm sorry, but this is an absolute disgrace! The A205 (the jocularly named South Circular) is an artery (a pretty sclerotic one, but the only one we've got!) for East: West connectivity for us South East Londoners - to effectively turn it into a three and half month traffic jam through the borough is appalling, and shows just how much (lack of) care the powers that be have for us.

I'm absolutely in favour of an improved crossing here - but I note that our councillors appear to have done nothing but acquiesce in TFL's proposal - clearly they simply don't care about the costs in both social and commercial traffic that will be imposed on us. For work that should not take this sort of time at all! The complexity will be on the timings of the new lights to allow passage of vehicles and people, and that can be worked out (will be worked out) at a work-station in an office. The rest is simple wiring. And probably, whilst they're there, some resurfacing to redefine road and pavement. Which does not take  three and a half months! Unless you are lazy and incompetent idiots unable to plan simple works.

I wonder, over that three and a half months of disruption, just how few workers, on how few days, we may expect to see actually 'working' there? But what matters, so long as they're happy and unstressed!

As usual we, the idiots paying for this, can go hang! And look forward to the endless jams polluting our atmosphere.

"As usual we, the idiots paying for this, can go hang! And look forward to the endless jams polluting our atmosphere." just wait for pro ltn crowd to suffocate you. Oh wait 🤔

[CPR Dave]

East Dulwich Grove next please.

[LordshipPain]

There seem to be a number of head boys and head girls on here that just cannot deal with others having any kind of opinion or emotion on the severe congestion that is being deliberately caused; Dulwich Village is also closed. This site is a joke. If you have an opinion be prepared to be put in your place by the bossy know-it-alls that answer EVERYTHING.

[Cyclemonkey]

I'd just like a pedestrian crossing so I don't have to take my life in to my hands when I walk to the Library.  I have 0 opinions on LTNs or Dulwich Village. 

Edited February 24 by Cyclemonkey

[LadyLordship]

On 19/02/2025 at 21:11, Penguin68 said:

Sorry, it's over 3 pages and in hard copy. 

Argh!!! Thank you so much for sharing this - I literally live above the shops opposite all this, and I had no idea this was happening until the temporary lights went in, the traffic went nuts, the bus stops closed, and the sign for 13 weeks of roadworks went up.  Why don’t we, as residents all get these updates? (Rhetorical question!).  The South Circ is a joke - 20mph and always rammed. Buses always getting caught in the middle and timetables up the spout. Deep sigh. 

I do hope though that this helps to ease the flow of traffic and slow down the large numbers of speeding vehicles between the South Circ junction and Overhill Road… and makes it safer for all.  If, when they mention re-working the pavements, they actually mean, making them fully accessible too - no more battling tree roots, upended pavement slabs, and a lot of rubbish from the lack of wheelie bins provided for the shops / flats above (we’re not allowed to have wheelie bins (WTF!) or food refuse collection, although it’s illegal to put food waste in general household waste), then GREAT news. But no one who lives or works/owns the shops directly opposite had ANY notice about this, consultations, nothing. So I find it fascinating so many others had letters from much further away 😑😒

Again thank you for sharing. Would be good to have copies of these up at the Bus Stops that are closed. But of course TfL won’t do something that helpful. There’s no explanation or dates to help manage anyone’s expectations of the works.

Selfish request: no overnight works - they are heinous. 

Edited February 25 by LadyLordship

[Penguin68]

On 19/02/2025 at 22:26, jazzer said:

A week's notice followed by three of potential chaos

Sadly not 3 but 13 weeks of actual chaos. 

[malumbu]

@Penguin It would be good if you could change this pejorative title - you could simply say South Circular roadworks - why does it take so long.  I'm not sure if you are still working, but in your profession would you like it if somebody without expertise criticised your work?

[Cyclemonkey]

Also think yourselves lucky, Thames Water have been doing works on our road in Forest Hill for 12 months.  Yes your read it right 12 months.  And as yet no end in sight. 

Edited February 26 by Cyclemonkey

[Penguin68]

Just thought I'd mention that, by 8th March, the only sign of the work being forecast is a sign, literally, saying that 'work starts on 3/03/2025 and will continue for 13 weeks' together with a temporary traffic signal, (not operational) and a little bit of fencing off of one bit of the pub.  Work has not started and although it is good that there is no traffic disruption I am standing by my argument that the people responsible for this are 'clowns'. If what has been done to date has taken 5 working days - well the mind boggles.

And if it hasn't - well why institute that signage? Will the 'work - and I use that word quite wrongly - take 13 weeks from 3rd March, or is it already running a week late?

If project managers working for me had kicked off so publically like that, I'd be at a first warning stage by now.

Has anyone noticed whether the forecast closure of adjacent bus stops has also started?

 

[Penguin68]

Admin has changed the title of this thread, but actually, at the moment, there is no disruption to traffic, or at least wasn't yesterday. I'm not complaining about what is not (yet?) there. I am complaining about poor planning and apparent mismanagement. Which a lack of any actual work to date, a week into the threatened disruption, would suggest is not misplaced. 

[Cancerian]

Terrible traffic on Friday around 1pm leading up from Dulwich library along that way. Took us over half an hour to get past the old harvesters. Buses coming up the bus lane also getting held up. A few drivers jumped into the bus lane as to follow closely behind the buses hoping not to get caught on camera but they soon became stuck! 

[ab29]

Just went to see what has been done.

Apart from fences and installing temp traffic lights a hole has been dug out. Two weeks worth of works. Impressive. The ministry of silly walks truly at it.

Edited March 16 by ab29

[Penguin68]

I know people hate me using this term, but that little achieved in 2 weeks does suggest to me that the augustes in the car that falls apart under the big top are well and truly on the job. Or rather, clearly not on the job. The project manager should be fired. And his or her boss! 

[ab29]

It is a perfect term Penguin. I live next door. I've been talking to neighbours and we are yet to spot the - very elusive - workers actually being on site. 

The works should be carried out 24/7 - where possible of course - to minimise the disruption. 

This is a very, very busy A-road, built over a hundred years ago and not fit for purpose in the best of times.

Ambulances, police cars and fire enginees are stuck in traffic for no reason other than incompetence.

Edited March 16 by ab29

[KalamityKel]

Erm actually, they've been doing a fair bit more than that tiny patch.  They're incredibly tidy and fill things back in once done and take the temp lights out often.

Lots of preparation, from my daily observance (no I'm not a nosy neighbour, the walk past that stretch is part of my daily commute), has been done especially with wiring.

One of the crossings, already in place (not in use), does take a bit of looking at to process how it will work with the flow of traffic and timings... 

Considering the heavy use of the junction, I think the work being done is not too bad.  The traffic does move, unlike when the numerous pipes from the library and right through/past Forest Hill burst.

It's worth keeping in mind, the Thames Water Works at the Library are not helping with congestion. The timing of these two projects are really the bug bear.

[ab29]

15 minutes ago, KalamityKel said:

 "Considering the heavy use of the junction, I think the work being done is not too bad" - what work?

[Sue]

11 minutes ago, ab29 said:

28 minutes ago, KalamityKel said:

 

 "Considering the heavy use of the junction, I think the work being done is not too bad" - what work?

Kalamity Kel described it in the  post that you have quoted ........