Up the reform

[DGM-1986]

Glad to see the country wants to see change, I really hope this is a big lesson in taking voters for granted!

[Sue]

39 minutes ago, DGM-1986 said:

Glad to see the country wants to see change, I really hope this is a big lesson in taking voters for granted!

Well I want to see change, but I don't want to see the kind of change which takes the UK in the direction the US has gone.

Nor the kind of change which involves Nigel Farage.

What exactly do you mean by "taking voters for granted",  DGM-1986?

Edited Friday at 18:07 by Sue

[Cancerian]

The Reform Party has surely taken the Conservatives and Labour by surprise? I’ve been a Conservative voter since the age of 18 and voted for them in the General Election last Summer. Sadly Labour were elected but their policies on so many issues have been their downfall as they did not stick to them. 
 

[malumbu]

Let's see how a Leader and party that thrive on division and demonising elements of our society actually do when they have to deliver. Let's hope that the two main parties don't consider that the best way to fight Reform is to become like then.

Even less reason to visit the small town where I grew up.  Not a cause for any joy or celebration.

Happy to celebrate the Canadian result.

[Cancerian]

But we’re not in Canada so why celebrate their recent election? Wasn’t their winner our Bank of England director up until his defection to his homeland of Canada? He caused chaos  in this country with his put down of everything British and his many dismal words about the effects of Brexit on this country.

[Sephiroth]

That’s called sticking up for britain

 

its people who think Brexit is a good thing - even now - that are anti-british

 

and thick 

[Sue]

9 hours ago, Cancerian said:

He caused chaos  in this country with his put down of everything British and his many dismal words about the effects of Brexit on this country.

How did he "put down everything British"?

Please give examples!

And as for "the effects of Brexit on this country", do you think he was wrong?

What exactly do you think are the positive effects of Brexit on this country? 

[diable rouge]

''He caused chaos  in this country with his put down of everything British and his many dismal words about the effects of Brexit on this country.''

What utter tosh. Carney had to mitigate the effects of Brexit caused by plastic patriots like Farage. For example, immediately after the 2016 Brexit vote the BoE had to intervene fiscally by dropping interest rates and increasing QE in order to prevent the economy from taking a big hit. 

They were unable to prevent the £ from crashing at the time, and it has since been worked out that the effect of that alone caused a circa £900/year hit to each UK household, which equates to the UK @ £450m/week.  

There's reams of data out there that shows the economic damage Brexit has caused to the UK. Here's one looking at business investment, admittedly not very sexy but kinda important if you want to achieve economic growth. It's clear to see that prior to 2016 we had reached parity with some of our main rivals, but since then we've flatlined. All that Brexit has achieved is to win the race to the bottom.

There's a reason why Farage never brought up Brexit at the last election, he knows himself it hasn't delivered on any of the promises, quite the reverse in fact. 

Labour, stupidly, by saying they can make Brexit work have in effect given Farage a Get Out of Jail Free card...

 

 

[Cancerian]

On 03/05/2025 at 08:07, Sephiroth said:

That’s called sticking up for britain

 

its people who think Brexit is a good thing - even now - that are anti-british

 

and thick 

That’s very insulting! You are basically calling 17 million people that voted to leave the EU ‘thick’. 

 

 

 

On 03/05/2025 at 09:19, Sue said:

How did he "put down everything British"?

Please give examples!

And as for "the effects of Brexit on this country", do you think he was wrong?

What exactly do you think are the positive effects of Brexit on this country? 

Brexit happened Sue. 

On 03/05/2025 at 10:53, diable rouge said:

''He caused chaos  in this country with his put down of everything British and his many dismal words about the effects of Brexit on this country.''

What utter tosh. Carney had to mitigate the effects of Brexit caused by plastic patriots like Farage. For example, immediately after the 2016 Brexit vote the BoE had to intervene fiscally by dropping interest rates and increasing QE in order to prevent the economy from taking a big hit. 

They were unable to prevent the £ from crashing at the time, and it has since been worked out that the effect of that alone caused a circa £900/year hit to each UK household, which equates to the UK @ £450m/week.  

There's reams of data out there that shows the economic damage Brexit has caused to the UK. Here's one looking at business investment, admittedly not very sexy but kinda important if you want to achieve economic growth. It's clear to see that prior to 2016 we had reached parity with some of our main rivals, but since then we've flatlined. All that Brexit has achieved is to win the race to the bottom.

There's a reason why Farage never brought up Brexit at the last election, he knows himself it hasn't delivered on any of the promises, quite the reverse in fact. 

Labour, stupidly, by saying they can make Brexit work have in effect given Farage a Get Out of Jail Free card...

 

 

Boring graphs!  Calling Nigel Farage a plastic patriot is also very insulting seeing as he and the Reform Party have had a landslide victory all over England.

[jazzer]

The only election which counts is the General Election. 

There is still strong resentment for fourteen year's of Conservative rule. They squeezed the working class's way to hard, then they squeezed the middle class, but somehow the upper class never got touched, funny that.  

There is also new resentment for Labour because of the utter balls up they've made of things since coming to power nine months ago. The majority of the population (or at least those with an ounce of common sense) want these clowns out of office ASAP because they see the damage they are doing to UK plc. They squeezed the pensioners, then the farmers and then business. They made and broke promise after promise, or just didn't tell the truth or say what they where going to do, otherwise known as merely lying to get elected. Inflation may be falling but the cost of things in the shops and utility bills keep on rising, the direct opposite of what they promised. They will never be trusted once they are ousted from power in about four and a half years time.  

Everything they do and touch causes further harm, led by three stooges, Rayner, Reeves and balls'less Starmer, who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. He still thinks he's a solicitor at the DPP. Rather than spending week upon week getting involved in international politics he needs to be sorting out the UK's issues, sadly he's not up to the job and nor are his Cabinet. 

Society needs a mix of people with different skills to prosper, not more and more graduates who can't get jobs in what they studied in.  

Reform is the current anti establishment party, which will hopefully wither away back to where it came from. 

The Liberals and Greens, well what can you say apart from using them as another alternative vote of dissatisfaction, but neither will come to power. 

The country seriously needs stability and a Government that stands up for and represents it's people, not what MP's want but what the constituencies want and need. 

Government needs to become far more open and transparent, it needs to be seen to be doing its job, doing what MP's are elected to do,  working for the people in the constituencies, getting back to basic principles and rebuilding the trust which has been lost by successive party's immaterial of them being, red, blue, light blue, yellow, green or some other colour.   

 

Edited Sunday at 22:52 by jazzer

[Sephiroth]

"That’s very insulting! You are basically calling 17 million people that voted to leave the EU ‘thick’. "

I'm certainly calling them wrong. And many of those 17 million agree with me now and have expressed regret. Many others were indeed thick, and remain so. You can see them being interviewed all the time. As for insulting, the losing side in that referendum have being called every name under the sun "enemies of the people" etc etc - so spare me the tears about being insulted

But for clarity. there is a certain type of individual who even now thinks Brexit was a good idea, tends to side with Trump and holds views about immigrants - and yes I am happy to calll those people thick. - and even worse

Jazzer posts a long and sometimes correct post about the failings of modern parties. I myself think labour are woefully underperforming. But equally it has been less than a year after 14 years of mismanagement and despite some significant errors have largely steadied the ship. You only have to speak to other  countries to recognise the improvement there. They have cut NHS waiting times, and the upside of things like NI increases is higher minimum wage - something hard-bitten voters should appreciate. They were accused of being too gloomy when they came in and yet simultaneously people are accusing them of promising the earth and failing to deliver - both of those can't be true at the same time

Fact is, this country repeatedly, over 15 years, voted for austerity and self-damaging policies like Brexit despite all warnings - this newish govt now have to pick up the pieces and there are no easy solutions. Voters say "we just want honest politicians" - ok, we have some bad news about the economy and the next few years  - "no no not that kind of honesty!!! - magic some solutions up now!"

Anyone who considers voting for Reform because they don't represent existing parties and want "change" is being criminally negligent in ignoring their dog-whistles, their lack of diligence in vetting, their lack of attendance (in Westminster now and in eu parties is guises past) and basically making all of the same mistakes when they pushed for Brexit - basically, not serious people

 

"cost of things in the shops and utility bills keep on rising, the direct opposite of what they promised." - can we see that promise? I don't recall it? Because whatever voters or govts want, the cost of things is not exactly entirely in their gift. People were warned prices would rise with Brexit and e were told "we don't care - it's a price worth paying!". Turns out that isn' really true now is it - people DO care about the cost of things (and of course there are other factors - covid, trump, tariffs, wars etc. 

 

What the country needs is a serious, mature electorate who take a high level view of priorities and get behind the hard work needed to achieve that. There is zero chance of that happening so we are doomed to repeat failures for years to come, complaining about everything and voting for policies which will make things worse

here we have labour 2024 energy manifesto commitments - all of it necessary long term investment - calling for immediate price cuts with no money in the kitty seems unrealistic given all of the economic headwinds

 

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/general-election-2024-all-manifesto-energy-pledges/#Labour_Party

Edited yesterday at 08:22 by Sephiroth

[malumbu]

The decision to leave the EU was a poor one, but I'd avoid the term stupid when applied to the masses (the decision was of course stupid) and blame those who willingly misled.  A certain N Farage (pronounced with a hard G rather than the soft G he affected, rather continental eh?) being one of the main culprits.

He blames the Tories for not delivering Brexit, and not really clear how Labour are playing this.  But ultimately what sort of Brexit were people voting for?  And ditto what future were people voting for last Thursday?

[Sephiroth]

of course most people would avoid the "stupid" term - but I'm sticking with it

fact is no other European would be so dumb, and even with the same information, the  same media, the same everything, 2 of the countries within the UK saw ho stupid an idea it was - but only the English (who played a large part in the Welsh result) pushed ahead - there is something defiantly arrogant and stupid and it isn't just down to bad info and bad leadership

But that was all 2016 - it's people in 2025 who claim it to be a good idea executed badly who are especially stupid

Now - does calling people stupid help anyone? It's not especially politically gainful and just gets peoples' backs up - but it remains a truth and only when the country as a whole genuinely holds it's hands up and admits the stupidity (rather than downplaying it as a poor decision - no shade meant Mal - you are just nicer and politer than me) will it begin. to turn the tide

Also worth mentioning that yes I am as intractable and blunt with friends and family who voted Leave as well - this isn't me hiding behind some online anonymous account. This is what I'm like

[Sue]

22 hours ago, Cancerian said:

 

Brexit happened Sue.

I didn't ask you whether or not Brexit happened! I am sadly only too well aware that it did!

I asked you what were its positive effects!

I'm not able to quote the whole post I'm referring to and your answer, apparently, so here's a screenshot .  You don't seem to have answered anything I asked?

[Twoddle]

Buy a real PC.

[Cancerian]

Yes what a palaver!  Brexit Leave voters are now called stupid instead of thick, 

 

[Angelina]

It's not incredibly difficult to understand that people vote Reform because they don't want the Tories back and they don't like Labour and they don't like the state the country is in.

It hardly makes them "criminally negligent" - in fact, Sepiroth,  you can just stop insulting people just because you don't like what they have to say - it doesn't really add to your credibility.

While Sep says "What the country needs is a serious, mature electorate", what the country REALLY needs is a party that we can trust - and that we do not have. 

There is no point at all in having a serious and mature electorate if we don't have a serious and mature party to get vote for.

[Sephiroth]

if anyone believes Reform is a party they can trust then they really don't need to be insulted by me - they are doing all the damage themselves

If people don't like the state the country is in they should question why Farage fought for Brexit and why it continues to damage the country so much. He and you will splutter it wasn't done properly but if you can't see the contradictions I can't help you

[Angelina]

Try and read before commenting Sep, or you will, as you have done, not be relevant

[Sephiroth]

14 minutes ago, Angelina said:

Try and read before commenting Sep, or you will, as you have done, not be relevant

erm, I did read, I referenced and I posted - what is your point?

[Jah Lush]

from Private Eye a little while back.

[Angelina]

The sad reality is that the failures of the Tories and Labour cannot solely be attributed to Brexit, as convenient as that may be

[Sephiroth]

I agree with that

The voters authorised strong austerity in 2010 and kept voting for it for 14 years - for that reason alone, given Labour have been in power for only months I can't find my else able to equate them as bad as each other. Yet. It may happen and given Labour's poor decision making and comms to date I wouldn't be surprised if they end up that way

Problem is the voters say they want one thing (lower prices/better public services/things working) but then don't reward any government that tries to deliver -  and they explicitly said they wanted higher prices with Brexit and lower public services by voting Cons in for 14 years - so they got what they wanted, they just don't like the reality

Whoever is elected now has to find a way to address those years of underinvestment and diminished growth - there is no painless way out. But blaming immigration for everything (Reform speciality) is only making everything worse

[Angelina]

the reason Tories have lost votes is because they have lost trust primarily.

the voters didn't vote for what the Tories did, but what they promised. you can't blame the voters for the outcome, just because they voted for the party.

Labour are in a position of influence so we will have to see what they do. 

Reform are there, as quite a presence should Labour continue to fail.

It feels as if we are on a very thin line

[Bob Buzzard]

I normally vote Lib Dem and will continue to do so.