Cllr Williams to stand down

[Sephiroth]

You literally just edited your earlier reply to remove the point you made about it being “politicians”.  Then you call me pathetic. 
 

I’m  not trying to say you approve any of the ugly right wing nonsense. 

But I AM Saying your earlier post suggesting  violent rhetoric being “left wing” was one-sided and incorrect 

Edited July 20 by Sephiroth

[HeadNun]

I edited my post because I couldn't be sure we were talking about politicians and I couldn't be bothered to read it all back. But it was off the back of a thread discussing labour councillors, so it went without saying really and I should have left it. 

What I said was 'There's something very aggressive about language like that - it's not big and it's not clever. Some of the angry energy that comes from the far left is pretty self-defeating.' (In relation to a labour councillor rather immaturely, in my view, wearing a jumper that read 'fuck the Tories'). 

But I don't recall saying that "violent rhetoric" is exclusively the domain of the left wing. So I do think you're taking a bit of a bit of leap here. 

[CPR Dave]

On 19/07/2025 at 18:43, Rockets said:

Politicians particularly so....remember it's always party before people!

I doubt McAsh will be in cabinet much longer...he might find even more attempts to kneecap his political career. I wonder if he might have to move to another area and restart - he obviously has political ambition but it seems Southwark is not going to be where it blossoms anymore - unless he can manage some sort of coup.

 

He seemed to me to be fully immersed in the Jeremy Corbyn ethos of the Labour Party. I dint think that (and self describing as a Marxist) would have helped much when Labour was changed under Starmer. There was a purge of people as far left as him that he was lucky to survive once in my opinion.

 

Stuff like this heavy endorsement of Momentum and Corbyn. It doesn't wash with a party that is in actual government.

 

https://labourlist.org/2020/04/forward-momentum-weve-launched-to-change-it-from-the-bottom-up/

Edited Monday at 13:42 by CPR Dave

[Sue]

3 hours ago, CPR Dave said:

He seemed to me to be fully immersed in the Jeremy Corbyn ethos of the Labour Party. I dint think that (and self describing as a Marxist) would have helped much when Labour was changed under Starmer. There was a purge of people as far left as him that he was lucky to survive once in my opinion.

 

Stuff like this heavy endorsement of Momentum and Corbyn. It doesn't wash with a party that is in actual government.

 

https://labourlist.org/2020/04/forward-momentum-weve-launched-to-change-it-from-the-bottom-up/

The party that is in actual government won't be in it long if it carries on like this.

I don't know how they have the cheek to still call themselves Labour.

[Rockets]

Because Corbyn's hard left version of Labour was totally unelectable and failed spectacularly when faced with an electorate beyond Islington. I know it pains left Labour but traditionally centre-left to centre-right is the sweet spot to win elections.

Glastonbury serenading Corbyn ahead of the 2019 election was not the beginning of the revolution but the sign that it was all over.

 

Edited Monday at 20:48 by Rockets

[Sue]

10 hours ago, Rockets said:

Because Corbyn's hard left version of Labour was totally unelectable and failed spectacularly when faced with an electorate beyond Islington. I know it pains left Labour but traditionally centre-left to centre-right is the sweet spot to win elections.

Glastonbury serenading Corbyn ahead of the 2019 election was not the beginning of the revolution but the sign that it was all over.

 

If memory serves, Labour under Corbyn got more electoral  votes than Labour under Starmer.

So I'm not sure how you can call that being "unelectable"?

Under a different and fairer electoral system Labour would have won.

I see moves are afoot to bring in such a different, fairer system, presumably in the hopes of stopping Reform winning next time.

BTW there was a mass exodus from Labour  by  the local (East Dulwich) Labour party members when Corbyn was kicked out by Starmer.

It isn't just Islington who doesn't want to support  a right or centre right Labour party.

Edited Tuesday at 07:33 by Sue

[Penguin68]

13 minutes ago, Sue said:

BTW there was a mass exodus from Labour  by  the local (East Dulwich) Labour party members when Corbyn was kicked out by Starmer.

It is not Labour Party members who elect Labour governments, as it certainly isn't Conservative Party members who elect Conservative ones. It is all those who are not party members who actually make up the sufficient numbers to elect governments. 

[CPR Dave]

It’s irrelevant to compare Corbyns vote to Starmers. They were two different elections with two different turnouts.

 

The only relevant comparisons for Corbyn are how many people voted for Theresa May and Boris Johnson. A lot more in both instances. As such there would be nothing fair about him winning.

[Sue]

2 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

It is not Labour Party members who elect Labour governments, as it certainly isn't Conservative Party members who elect Conservative ones. It is all those who are not party members who actually make up the sufficient numbers to elect governments. 

I was not suggesting anything else!

 

2 hours ago, CPR Dave said:

It’s irrelevant to compare Corbyns vote to Starmers. They were two different elections with two different turnouts.

 

The only relevant comparisons for Corbyn are how many people voted for Theresa May and Boris Johnson. A lot more in both instances. As such there would be nothing fair about him winning.

I'm not sure how you interpret what I said  as "irrelevant"?

I was responding to a post saying that Corbyn was "unelectable".

My point was that a  large number  of the electorate  voted for him!

[Penguin68]

44 minutes ago, Sue said:

My point was that a  large number  of the electorate  voted for him!

But a larger number, in a more hotly contested election, didn't. It is an anomaly that Starmer won a landslide in seats with a turnout for Labour which would have shamed Labour leaders in all the 21st and much of the post war 20th century.

[Sue]

4 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

But a larger number, in a more hotly contested election, didn't. It is an anomaly that Starmer won a landslide in seats with a turnout for Labour which would have shamed Labour leaders in all the 21st and much of the post war 20th century.

I'm not talking about Starmer.

I was responding to a post which  said that  Corbyn was unelectable.

How people voted in the "more hotly contested election" is irrelevant.

Corbyn wasn't leading the Labour Party then. Starmer was.

And the turnout for Labour reflects that. 

Edited Tuesday at 15:22 by Sue

[Rockets]

Corbyn was unelectable - he got trashed by Boris who was a buffoon. It was a good job too because I would have hated to see Corbyn and his rag-tag bunch of far-left university politics backbenchers try to lead the country through Covid. 

It is completely understandable why Starmer and the Labour Party want to purge Momentum from within their ranks and Cllr McAsh has fallen victim of that.

[Sue]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

Corbyn was unelectable - he got trashed by Boris who was a buffoon. It was a good job too because I would have hated to see Corbyn and his rag-tag bunch of far-left university politics backbenchers try to lead the country through Covid. 

It is completely understandable why Starmer and the Labour Party want to purge Momentum from within their ranks and Cllr McAsh has fallen victim of that.

When I have more time and energy, I will look up the actual number of votes cast for each party in that election, rather than the number of seats won.

I'm interested to see that you apparently  think that  Boris Johnson did a good job of "leading the country through Covid."

Is your memory really that short?

I won't stoop to calling Johnson and his cronies names in the way that you seem to think is appropriate for left wing politicians.

At least the left wing politicians have some semblance of morals and a concern for people who aren't in some over privileged inner circle and/or raking in money for themselves on the back of an epidemic.

I'm not going to open a can of worms on here  by commenting on the disgraceful so called "purge". 

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

I'm interested to see that you apparently  think that  Boris Johnson did a good job of "leading the country through Covid."

Where did I say he did a good job?

1 hour ago, Sue said:

At least the left wing politicians have some semblance of morals and a concern for people who aren't in some over privileged inner circle and/or raking in money for themselves on the back of an epidemic.

Yup and Corbyn was very close to Len McCluskey and funded by Unite wasn't he...they're all as bad as each other...

Labour have to purge their party of the far-left - they're a disaster. Allan Johnson summed it up so well on election night in 2019....

 

[Dulwich dweller]

7 hours ago, Sue said:

 

 

I'm not going to open a can of worms on here  by commenting on the disgraceful so called "purge". 

It worked.

Corbyn did similar although not to the same degree. Momentum had a purge too when Corbyn got in. All his political life he opposed the EU but when it came to the crunch he publicly backed them during the referendum. I believe that was to appease the middle classes that he was appealing to.

He messed up big time when wooing the middle classes at Glastonbury whilst ignoring his core working class voters up north. They also happened to be leave voters. He got starstruck and forgot about his politics. Corbynmania was thing, a movement but it was also the making of his downfall. For the many and not the few came back and slapped him right in the face. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:03 by Dulwich dweller

[Sue]

11 hours ago, Rockets said:

Where did I say he did a good job?

Yup and Corbyn was very close to Len McCluskey and funded by Unite wasn't he...they're all as bad as each other...

Labour have to purge their party of the far-left - they're a disaster. Allan Johnson summed it up so well on election night in 2019....

 

You implied he did a good job in your first paragraph when you said you would have hated to see Corbyn lead the country through Covid - the alternative being Johnson, presumably?

With the results we all saw.

Unite - you have a problem with unions? Who work hard to see that their members get a fair deal in their workplace?

How exactly are these people and groups "all as bad as each other"? In what way?

Labour "purging their party of the far-left" has given us a weak prime minister who has apparently deserted any "left" (aka caring for other people and having decent moral principles) leanings he ever had.

Which is why people appear to be leaving Labour in droves and voting, or intending to vote, Green or Lib Dem or for an independent Left candidate.

Starmer has shot himself in the foot, in my opinion. But what would I know.

5 hours ago, Dulwich dweller said:

It worked.

Corbyn did similar although not to the same degree. Momentum had a purge too when Corbyn got in. All his political life he opposed the EU but when it came to the crunch he publicly backed them during the referendum. I believe that was to appease the middle classes that he was appealing to.

He messed up big time when wooing the middle classes at Glastonbury whilst ignoring his core working class voters up north. They also happened to be leave voters. He got starstruck and forgot about his politics. Corbynmania was thing, a movement but it was also the making of his downfall. For the many and not the few came back and slapped him right in the face. 

What worked?!

I don't know enough about what you are talking about to comment, but "believing" you know the reason someone did something does not make it true.

I don't believe that Corbyn ever got "starstruck" or "forgot about his politics", but if you can provide evidence that those things are true, then fair enough. I don't think you can, though.

Edited Wednesday at 10:26 by Sue

[HEC]

15 hours ago, Rockets said:

Corbyn was unelectable - he got trashed by Boris who was a buffoon. It was a good job too because I would have hated to see Corbyn and his rag-tag bunch of far-left university politics backbenchers try to lead the country through Covid. 

It is completely understandable why Starmer and the Labour Party want to purge Momentum from within their ranks and Cllr McAsh has fallen victim of that.

And now we have the worst labour government in many many decades who, by moving to your position on the right, are ushering in a far right reform government. Well done you.

Edited Wednesday at 10:53 by HEC

[David Peckham]

Most recent polls for the next election suggest it will be a hung parliament, with Reform the largest party by a fair margin.

But that is predicated on Reform finding around 300 candidates who are actually electable. Given the number of Reform council candidates who have had to drop out prior to or after the local elections, does that seem likely? Social media is pretty unforgiving when it comes to finding skeletons in cupboards; a retweet or a like seems enough to scupper political ambitions.

A few may defect from other parties, but do you think the electorate would really vote for so many brand new MPs from a newish party?  I'm not so sure.

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

You implied he did a good job in your first paragraph when you said you would have hated to see Corbyn lead the country through Covid - the alternative being Johnson, presumably?

No I absolutely did not - that much is clear.

1 hour ago, Sue said:

Unite - you have a problem with unions? Who work hard to see that their members get a fair deal in their workplace?

How exactly are these people and groups "all as bad as each other"? In what way?

Have you read the latest stories about Unite, Len and the hotel in Birmingham?

1 hour ago, HEC said:

And now we have the worst labour government in many many decades who by moving to your position on the right are ushering in a far right reform government. Well done you.

The UK electorate were smart enough to reject a far-left party in 2019, let's hope they are smart enough to reject a far-right party at the next election too. If not we are all doomed.

[Sue]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

No I absolutely did not - that much is clear.

Can you explain what your point was, then?

Because it isn't clear to me.

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

Have you read the latest stories about Unite, Len and the hotel in Birmingham?

No. Perhaps you could provide a link and explain its relevance? That would be helpful

 

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

 

The UK electorate were smart enough to reject a far-left party in 2019, let's hope they are smart enough to reject a far-right party at the next election too. If not we are all doomed.

 

Those figures suggest that over 10,000,000 voters were not "rejecting a far left party."

Edited Wednesday at 14:46 by Sue

[malumbu]

4 hours ago, Rockets said:

 

The UK electorate were smart enough to reject a far-left party in 2019, let's hope they are smart enough to reject a far-right party at the next election too. If not we are all doomed.

@Sue think this is your quote.  It wasn't binary, good Vs bad, and Corbyn had a lot of popular support, as evidenced by the previous election. He had aot of good policies, some picked up by others since. He was defeated by a mixture of a right wing press,good targeting the Johnson 'Get Brexit Done" and for some that Johnson was a funny loveable rogue/fool/liar/philander/opportunist.  I wouldn't see choosing the perceived least worst candidate out of the two major parties as being "good sense'.  We imagine that Corbyn would have been terrible, but we don't know.  He would have taken a stronger line against Israel in Gaza, not sucked up to Trump nut on Russia?  Would the UK be better for that?

Edited Wednesday at 15:54 by malumbu

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Sue said:

Can you explain what your point was, then?

Because it isn't clear to me.

Exactly what I said, that Corbyn's group of univeristy politics far-left back benchers would have been a disaster during Covid if they had won the election.

2 hours ago, Sue said:

No. Perhaps you could provide a link and explain its relevance? That would be helpful

Here you go: 

BBC News - Ex-union boss McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report finds

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3kgg55410o

The 2019 result was considered one of the worst in living memory for Labour, not only for big swing of seats away from them but because they lost a large number of the Red-wall seats- generational Labour seats. Why? Because as Alan Johnson put it so succinctly: "Corbyn couldn't lead the working class out of a paper bag"!

https://youtu.be/JikhuJjM1VM?si=oHhP6rTq4hqvYyBC

[Sue]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

@Sue think this is your quote.  It wasn't binary, good Vs bad, and Corbyn had a lot of popular support, as evidenced by the previous election. He had aot of good policies, some picked up by others since. He was defeated by a mixture of a right wing press,good targeting the Johnson 'Get Brexit Done" and for some that Johnson was a funny loveable rogue/fool/liar/philander/opportunist.  I wouldn't see choosing the perceived least worst candidate out of the two major parties as being "good sense'.  We imagine that Corbyn would have been terrible, but we don't know.  He would have taken a stronger line against Israel in Gaza, not sucked up to Trump nut on Russia?  Would the UK be better for that?

Eh?

That wasn't "my quote"!

If you look at your post above,it is clearly a quote by Rockets!

41 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Exactly what I said, that Corbyn's group of univeristy politics far-left back benchers would have been a disaster during Covid if they had won the election.

Here you go: 

BBC News - Ex-union boss McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report finds

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3kgg55410o

The 2019 result was considered one of the worst in living memory for Labour, not only for big swing of seats away from them but because they lost a large number of the Red-wall seats- generational Labour seats. Why? Because as Alan Johnson put it so succinctly: "Corbyn couldn't lead the working class out of a paper bag"!

https://youtu.be/JikhuJjM1VM?si=oHhP6rTq4hqvYyBC

None of us have any  idea what a Corbyn led government during Covid would have been like.

But do you seriously think it would have been worse than Johnson's self-serving performance?

What you say about the swing of seats away from Labour in 2019 is true.

But you have missed my point completely.

The fact that Labour under Corbyn got more than ten million votes does not mean that Corbyn was "unelectable", does it?

The present electoral system is bonkers, which is why a change is apparently on the cards.

Anyway, it is pointless discussing this, because we are going round in circles.

As for McCluskey, whatever the truth of that report, I can't see what it has to do with Corbyn?

[Rockets]

59 minutes ago, Sue said:

The fact that Labour under Corbyn got more than ten million votes does not mean that Corbyn was "unelectable", does it?

But it was under our electoral system in 2019!

59 minutes ago, Sue said:

As for McCluskey, whatever the truth of that report, I can't see what it has to do with Corbyn?

This must be part of the right-wing media conspiracy that did for Corbyn....;-)

Corbyn was very closely allied to Unite and Len....

[Sue]

2 minutes ago, Rockets said:

But it was under our electoral system in 2019!

But I don't think that was what you meant, was it?

2 minutes ago, Rockets said:

This must be part of the right-wing media conspiracy that did for Corbyn....;-)

Corbyn was very closely allied to Unite and Len....

But he can hardly be held responsible for what somebody else did!