Cllr Williams to stand down

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

3 hours ago, Sue said:

But you have missed my point completely.

The fact that Labour under Corbyn got more than ten million votes does not mean that Corbyn was "unelectable", does it?

Everyone gets the point that Corbynites try to make with the "total number of votes cast" statistic, it's just a specious one. 

In 2017, Corbyn's Labour got fewer votes than May's Tories (both the percentage of votes and aggregate number of votes). In 2019, Corbyn's Labour fewer votes than Johnson's Tories (both the percentage of votes and aggregate number of votes); and he managed to drop 2.7 million votes or 6.9% of vote share between the two elections.

I repeat, he got trounced by Boris F***ing Johnson and the Tories after the Brexit omnishambles. It is not true that a "fairer" electoral system would have seen Labour beat the Tories: Labour simply got fewer votes than the Tories. Corbyn lost twice. There is no metric by which he won the general election. His failure to win was a disaster for the UK, and let Johnson and Truss and Sunak into office. Corbynites have to let go of this delusion that Corbyn but really won somehow if you squint in a certain way.

It is completely irrelevant that Labour under Corbyn got more votes than Labour under Starmer. It is like saying Hull City was more successful in its 2014 FA Cup Final than Chelsea was in its 2018 FA Cup Final, because Hull scored 2 goals when Chelsea only scored 1. But guess what - Chelsea won its game and Hull City lost. Corbyn's fans turned out to vote for him - but an even larger group of people who found him repellant were motivated enough to show up and vote Tory.

[jazzer]

10 hours ago, David Peckham said:

A few may defect from other parties, but do you think the electorate would really vote for so many brand new MPs from a newish party?  I'm not so sure.

I do hope NOT, wouldn't trust Farage as far as I could throw him, Starmer & co. 

He's backed by GB News which focus's predominantly on immigration while the BBC focus predominantly on the Israel - Gazza conflict.   

Edited Wednesday at 21:46 by jazzer

[Dulwich dweller]

14 hours ago, Sue said:

What worked?!

The purge of hard left members that were part of Corbyn's, Mcdonnel's and Lansmans momentum that purged the party of right wing and centrist members.

That's politics. It's what Blair did to win, its what Starmer had to do to win. This country doesn't vote in extreme left or right governments. That's partly why Corbyn lost  We're pretty much a centrist bunch. 

14 hours ago, Sue said:

I don't know enough about what you are talking about to comment, but "believing" you know the reason someone did something does not make it true.

It doesn't make it false either. It's an opinion based on the voting patterns, demography and statistics. Can you explain then why former mining constituencies that despise the tories voted for them or abstained rather than vote for Corbyns Labour?  What is the truth then?

On 22/07/2025 at 11:04, Sue said:

I'm not sure how you interpret what I said  as "irrelevant"?

I was responding to a post saying that Corbyn was "unelectable".

My point was that a  large number  of the electorate  voted for him!

But he never got elected!!! Why?

2 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

I repeat, he got trounced by Boris F***ing Johnson 

He should have been binned off there and then. Why he was allowed to hang about is an outrage. I hold him party responsible for the shit show that we've had to endure since. 

[Dulwich dweller]

14 hours ago, Sue said:

I don't believe that Corbyn ever got "starstruck"

What was he doing on the stage at Glastonbury? Or on the stage at the other concert in Finsbury Park? Grinning like a Cheshire cat whilst pissed and stoned 20 somethings on the promise of free internet sung-- Oh Jeremy Corbyn--- 

What were his policies for Northern mining towns with no jobs or infrastructure?

Free Internet and university places for youngsters. What were his other manifesto pledges? Why all the ambiguity over Brexit? 

I didn't like Thatcher, Blair or May or Tony but I respected them as politicians because they stood by what they believed in. I respect all politicians across the board that stick to their principles. Corbyn didn't and its why he got  annihilated at the polls.

A socialist, anti imperialist and anti capitalist that said he voted for an imperialist and pro capitalist cabal. He refused to say how he'd vote over and over again until the last knockings.

He did so to appease the Islington elite and middle class students he was courting. The same people that were screaming that Brexit was racist. At the same time the EU were holding black and Asian immigrants in refugee camps overseas but not a word on that!

Corbyn created and courted a student union protest movement that screamed at and shouted down anyone not on the left . They claimed Starmer and the centre right of labour were tories. He didn't get elected  because he, his movement and policies were unelectable, twice.

He turned out not to have the convictions of his politics and died on his own sword. 

 

15 hours ago, HEC said:

And now we have the worst labour government in many many decades who, by moving to your position on the right, are ushering in a far right reform government. Well done you.

Reform won't win an election. All the idiots that voted for them to keep out Labour actually enabled Labour. They'll be back voting tory next time. 

 

Farage wouldn't be able to make his millions if he was in power. He's a very devious shyster but I very much doubt he'd actually want the responsibility that governance requires.

[Sue]

13 hours ago, Rockets said:

But it was under our electoral system in 2019!

But I don't think that was what you meant, was it?

13 hours ago, Rockets said:

This must be part of the right-wing media conspiracy that did for Corbyn....;-)

Corbyn was very closely allied to Unite and Len....

But he can hardly be held responsible for what somebody else did!

Just discovered I forgot to post the above  last night, and now it's overtaken by long posts.

 I don't have sufficient knowledge  to counter some of what has been said above, some of which appears to be opinion rather than facts, so it would be pointless for me to say anything else.

[Sephiroth]

if I think of Corbyn dealing with a global pandemic (a lot of his supporters and some of his family come from the woo end of the spectrum - his brother is a proper anti-vax nut), then the  invasion of Ukraine (Corbyn long record of not exactly condemning Putin even as he killed people on British soil and many other matters, I  really do shudder

 

 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

It's not fair to hold Corbyn's brother's views against him when he has never explicitly or implicitly endorsed them. And he has enough of his own terrible positions to criticise anyway.

[Sephiroth]

ok - Jeremy himself is against mandatory vaccines. Is he as extreme as his brother? No? Is it fair to discuss how the overall view of that family would inform Jeremy's response to the pandemic? I would argue very much so

 

 

[Sue]

8 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

ok - Jeremy himself is against mandatory vaccines. Is he as extreme as his brother? No? Is it fair to discuss how the overall view of that family would inform Jeremy's response to the pandemic? I would argue very much so

 

 

It was my understanding that Jeremy Corbyn was embarrassed by his brother and had distanced himself from his brother's views.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Why on earth should "the overall view of that family inform Jeremy's response to the pandemic"?

What exactly are you basing that assumption on?

[Sephiroth]

I’m basing it on the fact that Jeremy Corbyn had repeatedly and on record said he is against mandatory vaccinations in any situation, and he wouldn’t disclose wether he had the Covid vaccine himself 
 

as I said. Not as bad as his brother but very definitely a bit weird about the whole thing. Just say you had the vaccination Jeremy, say that everyone should and stop being weird in the middle of a global pandemic 

 

it’s the same slippery evasive nonsense about Brexit and him. About Putin poisonings and him.  
 

if you are happy with his evasiveness then you do you.  But there is a reason the country wouldn’t get behind him 

[Dulwich dweller]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

It was my understanding that Jeremy Corbyn was embarrassed by his brother and had distanced himself from his brother's views.

Is that a fact or an opinion?

[Sue]

6 hours ago, Dulwich dweller said:

Is that a fact or an opinion?

As I said, it was my understanding.

I worded it very carefully.

I didn't/don't know for sure, so clearly not a fact.

And hardly an "opinion", which is something completely different.

7 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

I’m basing it on the fact that Jeremy Corbyn had repeatedly and on record said he is against mandatory vaccinations in any situation, and he wouldn’t disclose wether he had the Covid vaccine himself 
 

as I said. Not as bad as his brother but very definitely a bit weird about the whole thing. Just say you had the vaccination Jeremy, say that everyone should and stop being weird in the middle of a global pandemic 

 

it’s the same slippery evasive nonsense about Brexit and him. About Putin poisonings and him.  
 

if you are happy with his evasiveness then you do you.  But there is a reason the country wouldn’t get behind him 

You have no idea what reason anybody might have had for not voting for him (unless you can point to some opinion poll results which actually asked people?)

[Sephiroth]

"You have no idea why"

 

To be fair Sue, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has a conversation with anyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. And even some who liked Corbyn (like me initially) found him somewhat flaky even at his most popular

But let's say you are right and I have NO idea why anybody might not vote for him. They still didn't vote for him. He lost two elections. The second one badly (and strongly predicted but the stubborn old goat wouldn't budge so we we were stuck with Johnson and another 3 million PMs in the 5 years that followed)

So even with ZERO evidence, we have our eyes and ears and brains

But we do have evidence

 

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/27022-their-own-words-why-voters-abandoned-labour

[Sue]

3 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

"You have no idea why"

 

To be fair Sue, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has a conversation with anyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. And even some who liked Corbyn (like me initially) found him somewhat flaky even at his most popular

But let's say you are right and I have NO idea why anybody might not vote for him. They still didn't vote for him. He lost two elections. The second one badly (and strongly predicted but the stubborn old goat wouldn't budge so we we were stuck with Johnson and another 3 million PMs in the 5 years that followed)

So even with ZERO evidence, we have our eyes and ears and brains

But we do have evidence

 

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/27022-their-own-words-why-voters-abandoned-labour

First of all, conversations with people who aren't Corbyn supporters are obviously going to tell you why those people didn't vote for him, aren't they?

Second (and I don't know why I have to keep on saying this) the electoral system worked against him in terms of seats lost.

If you look at the actual numbers of votes per party, yes Labour was behind, but not by as much as it appeared if just seats were counted.

Thirdly, that poll was of "nearly 500" people who stopped voting Labour.

That's not a very big sample, is it?

Of those, 35% said it was because of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership (i.e. 65% had other reasons).

Even upping the numbers to  500 people, 35% is 175.

10,269,051  people did actually vote Labour in that election.

It's a long time since I used statistics for anything, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anything you have said is "evidence"!

[jazzer]

As you quite rightly say a sample of 500 is extremely  small. (actually unrepresentative in the scheme of things)

Now corbyn has his own party or should that be Party, it'll be interesting to see if it is merely a "think tank" or if it contests seats and then if they win any and if they chase currently held seats by Labour. It'll be even more amusing if it unseats current Labour Ministers though.   

[Sephiroth]

Sue. You really don’t have to keep saying about the electoral system 

 

a) we all know about it

b) it doesn’t matter 

 

FPTP is the system we have always had and hopefully we will get rid of it someday but it is what it is 

 

when anyone suggests changing the system Corbyn is right there at the front of the queue to prevent it

 

so its pointless him or any of supporters complaining about it 

 

the evidence you want is the result of the elections. You can’t have clearer evidence. 

[Sue]

1 hour ago, Sephiroth said:

Sue. You really don’t have to keep saying about the electoral system 

 

a) we all know about it

b) it doesn’t matter 

 

FPTP is the system we have always had and hopefully we will get rid of it someday but it is what it is 

 

when anyone suggests changing the system Corbyn is right there at the front of the queue to prevent it

 

so its pointless him or any of supporters complaining about it 

 

the evidence you want is the result of the elections. You can’t have clearer evidence. 

OK.

We are clearly living in different universes,  where logic takes different forms and "evidence" has  different meanings.

And becomes something else when questioned.

We are just going round in circles, so it feels pointless to continue.

[Sephiroth]

Not sure what you mean by that

ive heard your arguments many many times and the numbers are the numbers and the voting system is the voting  system and corbyn voted to keep it and lost massively in the election

 

so where are we differing? Where are we at cross-purposes? 

[Sue]

4 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

Not sure what you mean by that

ive heard your arguments many many times and the numbers are the numbers and the voting system is the voting  system and corbyn voted to keep it and lost massively in the election

 

so where are we differing? Where are we at cross-purposes? 

I've got nothing else to say. It's pointless.

Coming back to the original subject of the thread, apologies if this has already been posted, but I've only just seen it.

https://novaramedia.com/2025/07/17/how-labour-rigged-an-election-to-block-a-leftwinger-from-leading-a-council/

 

[Dulwich dweller]

18 hours ago, Sue said:

And hardly an "opinion", which is something completely different.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Facts become opinions when one can't be bothered to find the truth or don't like the truth. 

 

It's pointless trying to converse with you because you can't be bothered when challenged. You just brush stuff aside and plead ignorance. And if you can't be bothered to read things that you deam to be too long then what's the point in the first place.

 

I won't be responding g to anymore of your wind ups or posts.

[Sue]

10 hours ago, Dulwich dweller said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

Facts become opinions when one can't be bothered to find the truth or don't like the truth. 

 

It's pointless trying to converse with you because you can't be bothered when challenged. You just brush stuff aside and plead ignorance. And if you can't be bothered to read things that you deam to be too long then what's the point in the first place.

 

I won't be responding g to anymore of your wind ups or posts.

I am  ill in bed with Covid.

It's not that I "can't be bothered" to read things. I am feeling crap and don't have the mental  energy at the moment.

I am not "brushing stuff aside and pleading ignorance." I am truthfully saying when I don't presently know enough about something to be able to comment.

I have always been very careful to try to  differentiate between fact and opinion in both  my posts and other people's, and I am not clear what your point is.

And I am certainly not trying to wind anybody up.

This is a forum. If you don't want to respond to my posts, that's up to you. I'm not sure why you feel the need to announce it. 

 

Edited yesterday at 09:33 by Sue
Clarification

[malumbu]

Oh dear, hope you are OK, I've had it three times and it was worse each time, but not a patch on many of those who got it before they vac' role out.

Not commenting on the discussion as I got confused many days ago beyond the reminder that Corbyn would not compromise and the harm that could lead to him, the party and regards Brexit pre and post referendum the country.  Starmer goes too far the other way at times.  

[Dulwich dweller]

5 hours ago, Sue said:

.

 

5 hours ago, Sue said:

I am  ill in bed with Covid.

Get well soon!

Edited yesterday at 14:23 by Dulwich dweller
Mistake

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

...

Edited 2 hours ago by Dogkennelhillbilly
I wasn't being helpful. Sorry.