Oh David / Is David Lammy Toast?

[HeadNun]

Just this, really. 

I'll say one thing, it's never boring with Labour

[Sue]

Why do you think he should be toast?

All these problems with the prison service apparently go way back, long before Labour took over.

[vladi]

Agreed, he should not be held accountable over the mess up over release of prisoners. On the other hand he did himself no favours with his gaffes on the BBC Master Mind programme where he passed on five questions. Where he did answer, here are some of his responses....

When asked who succeeded Henry VIII, Lammy incorrectly answered “Henry VII,”

When asked which French scientist won Nobel prizes for both physics and chemistry?” Lammy responded with “Antoinette”

When asked which fortress was built to defend Paris and later used as a prison, he answered “Versailles".

When asked which variety of blue English cheese is often taken with port, he answered "Leicester"

If nothing else he was entertaining.

[HeadNun]

57 minutes ago, Sue said:

Why do you think he should be toast?

All these problems with the prison service apparently go way back, long before Labour took over.

I was referring more to his performance at PMQs yesterday. It was quite a riot! Almost topped Mastermind

 

[David Peckham]

He wasn't great when interviewed on Channel 4 News this evening either, but he may get some respite tomorrow with the breaking Nandy story.

[HeadNun]

Oh you tease...! Whatever next? 

[CPR Dave]

He should be. His behaviour has been appalling. Refusing to comply with a Speaker's request to come back to the HoC and explain himself shows utter contempt to parliament and the electorate. If he had any any integrity he would resign. Nothing to do with the prisoner, but all to do with his arrogance and contempt.

This Labour party don't have any integrity at all though. We are two weeks away from the Chancellor of the Exchequer breaking a fundamental manifesto commitment. Breaking promises like demeans the entire contract between voters and MPs. If she doesn't resign for breaking those promises (she won't) then all manifesto promises going forward have to also be treated as lies, not worth the paper they are written on.  She should have already resigned herself for the breaking the law over her failure to register as a landlord.

They are an absolute disgrace.

And whilst all this farce plays out in Downing St where the fuck is the Prime Minister? Nowhere to be seen, unanswerable to the public about this disgraceful shambles.

[HeadNun]

Yep CRP Dave. It reminded me of Jess Phillips a couple of weeks ago, when the grooming gangs enquiry started going tits up. 

It's not very statesman-like to lose your shit like that in the chamber. It's one unedifying display after another. 

[CPR Dave]

Agreed. completely unprofessional and it makes them look more incompetent than they are. 

 

No one blames Lammy for the state of the prisons. He's only been in this demoted role for a few weeks following the Angela Rayner sacking. 

 

But they do blame him for behaving so terribly badly. It makes it look like he has actually done something wrong and is covering up with angry bluster and needless secrecy.

 

Not fit for purpose. 

[HeadNun]

They all need to progress out of passionate, angry student activist mode and into boss mode. It's the tail wagging the dog at the moment. 

[Angelina]

They should take responsibility collectively, as united team. Constantly blaming someone else, excuses. It's lame.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

They're not wrong to blame the previous government for leaving a mess. But they made stupid promises on taxation, which made it impossible for them to fix things. They should never have made those promises, but having done so it would be stupider still not to correct course imo. Breaking their manifesto pledge is the better of two bad options. More austerity / cuts to services just aren't going to wash with the public. They have to raise money in the short to medium term. 

Edited November 7 by Earl Aelfheah

[HeadNun]

1 hour ago, Angelina said:

They should take responsibility collectively, as united team. Constantly blaming someone else, excuses. It's lame.

 

Is it lame? Or is it Lamey? (sorry)

[CPR Dave]

They are a third of the way through their term Earl. It's no good blaming other people anymore. They only have three years left to fix what is now their own mess.

And its not just lies in the manifesto. There were lies at the last budget too, when they said that was it, they weren't coming back for more tax and more borrowing. They'd already blamed the increase in NIC taxes on what they claimed was a thorough investigation. They either knew everything then or they lied about that too .

 

They need to stop lying and start behaving. If they don't the next government won't be theirs, it will be led by Nigel Farage. 

They have to turn it round rapidly. Blaming other people, telling lies and breaking promises isn't going to cut it any more.

Edited November 7 by CPR Dave

[David Peckham]

There was an excellent discussion on Newscast last night between the BBC Political Editor, the director of the IFS and the director of More In Common - all highly intelligent people with no party political agenda and far more across their briefs than any minister I've seen in years.

The consensus was that Labour are so unpopular and untrusted by the electorate already, as are the Conservatives, that breaking the manifesto pledge on income tax wouldn't drive their approval ratings any lower, so they should, and I quote, 'Roll The Dice', hope for the best and see where we are in a couple of years time.

As a strategy, i don't know whether I find that quite worrying or just an honest appraisal of what most governments actually do in practice.

[HeadNun]

Messaging, messaging, messaging. That's all it boils down to. There are only so many fiscal policies out there, and they're there for the taking, no matter which party you're in. I hate to say it, but Farage gets it right every time. Even when Reform reneges on fiscal policy, it does it with enough confidence and candidness that no one is wringing their hands. Instead, they're quietly admired for their pragmatism. Strangely, it's exactly the same as Labour has done, with its manifesto reverse on income tax, but it's going to bomb. 

Blaming the Tories / Brexit / Covid / Putin ... none of it washes with the public anymore  - it wants to be sold a vision of the future, not reminded of the disasters of the past. Labour put itself on the back foot with its 'the tories fucked it all up' stance right at the beginning of its tenure. 

All Lammy had to do (as with Reeves and Raynor etc) was say 'mea culpa. We've made a mistake, we'll fix it. Sorry guys, we're on it'. But instead it's 'nothing to see here / it's someone else's fault / I was buying a suit / hadn't been briefed yet'. 

And, of course, the press smells blood, which never helps. 

Oh! And Reeve's speech on Wednesday was so drab and predictable that even the journalists at the press conference couldn't really be arsed to come up with any challenging questions. 

[Sephiroth]

“There was an excellent discussion on Newscast last night between the BBC Political Editor, the director of the IFS and the director of More In Common - all highly intelligent people with no party political agenda ”

I would call this “generous”

 

Labour should never have made that tax promise because, as with - duh - Brexit, it’s pretending the real world doesn’t exist

now. I blame Labour in no small part for this delusion. But the electorate need to cop on as well.  They think they can have everything they want without responsibilities, costs or attachments. The media encourage this 

Labour do need to raise taxes. The country needs it.  Now, exactly how it’s done remains to be seen. But if people are just going to go around going “la la laffer curve. Liars! String em up! Vote someone else” then they just aren’t serious people reckoning with the problem

yes Labour are more than a year into their term, but after 14 years of what the Tories  did? Whoever takes over, has a major problem 

[HeadNun]

Yes, all this. Totally Sephiroth. The electorate wants to see transformation overnight. That's not possible. But what is possible is leading with the right comms strategy, which isn't cutting through. As I've said before, messaging matters more now than policy, that's the only way to bring the electorate with you. And I worry that that's how Reform's going to get into power. 

And the media LOVES Reform. 

[David Peckham]

10 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

“There was an excellent discussion on Newscast last night between the BBC Political Editor, the director of the IFS and the director of More In Common - all highly intelligent people with no party political agenda ”

I would call this “generous'.

In what way?

Maybe it just felt more intelligent and considered coming directly after Question Time, which was a barely watchable bun fight.

[Sephiroth]

12 minutes ago, HeadNun said:

Yes, all this. Totally Sephiroth. The electorate wants to see transformation overnight. That's not possible. But what is possible is leading with the right comms strategy, which isn't cutting through. As I've said before, messaging matters more now than policy, that's the only way to bring the electorate with you. And I worry that that's how Reform's going to get into power. 

And the media LOVES Reform. 

I have sympathy with any voter, anyone, who having witnessed the last 14 years and then Labour in the last year and wonders just how can things be this bad 

unless

a) they voted for brexit

b) voted Tory after 2010

c) is thinking of voting reform 

because anyone who thinks reform won’t make things a thousand times worse after voting for the previous?  It is they who are the problem.  They are the reason the country is in the doldrums with an embarrassingly-timid Labour government 

23 minutes ago, David Peckham said:

In what way?

Maybe it just felt more intelligent and considered coming directly after Question Time, which was a barely watchable bun fight.

Specifically Chris mason - a not very bright right leaning stooge - large part of why bbc news has become grok-level slop  

[HeadNun]

No they aren't. You're coming across as a smug, superior liberal, and that's what old fashioned voters (labour, Cons and now Reform) hate. That 'the deplorables' 'they're all ignorant racists' line is what's driving people away from the traditional parties and towards Reform. 

You're as guilty of looking back as Labour. This is a new, post-europe world and we all need to come to terms with that, make do with what we have, and move forward. 

 

 

 

[Sephiroth]

that is one cliche-ridden post headnun 

 

it doesn’t mean a sack of beans in the real world 

“old fashioned voters” meaning the ones dragging the country down this last 15 years just to laugh at the libs tears. Well done all 

I’m not looking back at all. This is not a post Europe world in any sense. There are forces bigger than Europe but uk would be better aligning with Europe against, say, china, the pretending we live in some post Europe world. 
 

and in case you hadn’t noticed, whoever you vote for, there are a LOT of ignorant racists feeling very happy with their resurgence - I would fight against them if I were you 

[ianr]

How does one 'fight against...'?

[Sephiroth]

2 minutes ago, ianr said:

How does one 'fight l

You fight against by not pretending. By calling it what it is. Instead of slyly pretending they are not racist “actually” 

recognise what the country is facing and say “no”

why do you even need to ask the question?

[vladi]

1 hour ago, HeadNun said:

 The electorate wants to see transformation overnight. That's not possible. But what is possible is leading with the right comms strategy, which isn't cutting through. As I've said before, messaging matters more now than policy, that's the only way to bring the electorate with you. And I worry that that's how Reform's going to get into power. 

And the media LOVES Reform. 

Both Labour and Conservatives can remove the threat of a Reform government by making making two major policy promises. And these are .......... (1) categorically state that they will take Britain out of the ECHR and (2) Undertake to remove any new small boat arrivals to Rwanda or wherever else.
Reform is basically a single issue party and adopting (1) & (2) would send Reform into obscurity. The country has had enough of our judiciary making a gold-plated interpretation of the ECHR statutes.