Cyclist visibility

[Rockets]

16 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Are you trying to pretend that your having less sympathy with those hit by a car, are only in reference to those hit by a car and not injured? Because being hit by a car will injure you. Think you're rather unsubtly trying to row back what you've said.

No I am not I am pointing out that you are putting words into my mouth and then trying to take us down a rat hole when I challenge you on it. It happens every single time anyone tries to debate something/anything with you.

14 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

Oh please don't go down that "give others a bad name" nonsense.

Why not? That's how reputation's are built and wrecked. As a cyclist who obeys the rules and is mindful and considerate to other road users (and actually knows the rules and guidance in relation to cyclists) it is of enormous frustration to me that I see growing numbers of cyclists who care not one jot for any other road users, who put themselves and others in harm's way because of their selfish attitude to the way they cycle. No-one notices the good behaviour only the bad.

18 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

What you're doing is a form of outgrouping leading to the over-generalisation of negative behaviours or attributes. 

No I am not, I think I am reflecting the general perception towards cyclists which is being dictated by the growing bad behaviour by many cyclists. Some may be happy to to put their heads in the sand and defend cyclists and bad and inconsiderate cycling (after all cars kill far more people than cyclists - which seems to be the mitigation offered by many) but the perception is growing amongst the wider (probably non-cycling - given some cyclists seem to be a bit selective about what they see) public that there is a problem with cycling. It's a bit like estate agents - there are good estate agents but their reputation has been tarnished.

If you want to see the manifestation of how bad things can get go to downtown Amsterdam where the frustration and anger towards cyclists is palpable. Closer to home it is interesting that the Mayor is closing Oxford Street West (a huge swathe of Oxford Street between Great Portland Street and Orchard Street) to cyclists as well as vehicles - clearly they don't want to mix pedestrians and cyclists. Why might that be? 

 

[Raeburn]

Rockets; you couldn’t be more wrong. Amsterdam functions wonderfully with so many people cycling harmoniously alongside all other modes of transport, including walking, driving, micromobility, and trams. I say this because I’m typing this now from Amsterdam, and have been admiring how lovely the city is because of the integration of all transport. 

 

[Rockets]

@Raeburn we will agree to disagree on that one - anywhere inside Singelgracht is a nightmare for pedestrians. Granted everything works nicely the further out of the city you get but inside it is an utter nightmare - it's why Amsterdam is looking at banning certain types of bikes from bike paths in the city (e-bikes, cargo bikes etc).

[snowy]

We've been through this. Amsterdam and other dutch cities are not looking to ban ebikes. They’re looking to move things like e-cargo bikes used for logistics onto the main roads. 
 

they're also looking to move faster cycles / fatbikes and scooters to the main roads so bike paths are available to all users.
 

Subsidies for cargo bikes from the government increased there in 2025. 

[exdulwicher]

12 hours ago, Raeburn said:

Rockets; you couldn’t be more wrong. 

Can we just make this a standard automatic response?!

[Raeburn]

‘downtown Amsterdam where the frustration and anger towards cyclists is palpable‘

‘anywhere inside Singelgracht is a nightmare for pedestrians‘

???

Utter nonsense Rockets.
 

I had a nice 30-minute run around the area yesterday morning, in ‘rush hour’. People going to work, young people going to school, deliveries being made to businesses, all forms of transport. It was all very pleasant, and I’m writing that as a pedestrian. Nothing could be further from what you have written. Why are you making this stuff up?

Very possible that cargo bikes are being ‘banned’ from cycle lanes in Singelgracht because private car access is being phased out, leaving road space available for alternative delivery modes.

 

edit; didn’t see Snowy’s reply while I was writing mine, appreciated @snowy

Edited Wednesday at 11:12 by Raeburn
Added detail

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Raeburn said:

Utter nonsense Rockets.

We will agree to disagree on that one....

Downtown Amsterdam is the thing of cycle nightmares.

2 hours ago, Raeburn said:

Very possible that cargo bikes are being ‘banned’ from cycle lanes in Singelgracht because private car access is being phased out, leaving road space available for alternative delivery modes.

@Raeburn let me explain - Singelgracht is one of the main canals (so I doubt any bikes or cars will be using that! ;-)) and I was using that to say anything the other side of it towards the city is a nightmare. The other side is ok. 

Additionally, the potential banning of e-bikes, cargo bikes, fat tyre bikes etc in bike lanes is being considered for the whole of Amsterdam - in fact a number of cities in the Netherlands are considering similar bans.

2 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

15 hours ago, Raeburn said:

Rockets; you couldn’t be more wrong. 

Can we just make this a standard automatic response?!

If only it were true of course and not just a knee-jerk response anytime anyone reads something I post that they don't agree with! 😉

 

[Raeburn]

Singelgracht area then. Whatever.

 

 

[Rockets]

Imagine Singelgracht like a ring-road canal that encircles the inner city - it has an entrance/exit to both the north and the south of the city. My reference to that was that the area within the Singelgracht canal - the actual inner-city, is a nightmare because of cyclists. Outside of it everything works well but inside it is a cycle nightmare.

[Raeburn]

Yes, I understood you Rockets - apologies I didn’t use the correct term, but it was clear what I meant (why do you have to argue with everything?).

I ran around the area, both inside and out, and it seemed very civilised to me. Yes, there is a difference between sides of the canal, but no nightmares or  ‘palpable anger’ that you claim is prevalent in the inner area.

I’m sure you’ll reply with some tenuous blog/article/video of an annoyed person/local/tourist, but google doesn’t turn up much at all, so it’s clearly not the major problem you claim it to be. You seem actively mis-informed and/or willingly ignorant, yet again.

[Rockets]

22 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

You seem actively mis-informed and/or willingly ignorant, yet again.

And you seem to be arguing with me based on a 30 minute run in late November.....ho hum....maybe chat to some of the locals about the joys of cyclists in the city centre (especially in the summer months).

Interesting though that local authorities across the Netherlands are looking to ban certain types of bikes using cycle paths in cities....perhaps ask some locals about their thoughts on that too!

BTW if you want any good restaurant recommendations I have plenty!

[Raeburn]

your assertions that;
 

‘downtown Amsterdam where the frustration and anger towards cyclists is palpable‘

‘anywhere inside Singelgracht is a nightmare for pedestrians‘
 

Is simply untrue Rockets. End of.

 

As I’ve said before, the more you post these deliberate untruths, the more it undermines any decent discussion points, and outs you as an agitator and troll.

[Rockets]

4 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

As I’ve said before, the more you post these deliberate untruths, the more it undermines any decent discussion points, and outs you as an agitator and troll.

Agitator and troll - they're two new ones I can add to the names I have been called! 😉 All because I dared offer an opinion that differs from yours. Ho hum - par for the course.

6 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

Is simply untrue Rockets. End of.

Spend some more time there, maybe have a chat to the locals - I think you'll find they'll agree with me more than you! They'll probably tell you during the summer months, and especially during the height of the tourist season, that the inner-city is blighted by cyclists (especially tourists).

Oh and if you drink beer avoid the Texels cloudy beer - it goes down like fruit juice but is lethal!!! 😉 

[Raeburn]

‘Some locals occasionally get frustrated with the number of tourists at peak times’. 

….so like every tourist destination Rockets?….

keep scare-mongering all you like, but for the benefit of the forum, having seen it with my own eyes, central Amsterdam is not how you have presented it.
 

——

 

You make out that ‘banning’ of cargo/large bikes from bike lanes is a bad thing. This is a sign of progress, that the reduction in private motorised vehicles and better infrastructure can allow this. Great document here on the strategy around reducing air pollution in Amsterdam, showing how far ahead things are - it all sounds very pleasant, and one which bikes/e-bikes/pedal power logistics/micro-mobility are a part of.

https://assets.amsterdam.nl/publish/pages/867636/zero-emission_implementation_agenda_2023-2026.pdf

-cue Rockets now picking this apart, finding fault, distracting, extrapolating a tiny detail, calling me a lobbyist, etc etc etc…

[snowy]

Whilst procrastinating yesterday, i wrote this and then remembered its a pointless task albeit occasionally a fun one highlighting  rockets' fallacious comments.

Facts don't become facts when you state suppositions on the east dulwich forum.

We have first hand commentary from someone there yesterday pointing out that its not the nightmare that you describe. It wasn't a nightmare when i was there this year, nor in the 20 years I've regularly visited.

Is it better than before the 'stop the child murder' campaign in the 70s?
 

Measurably yes.

Is it voted as one of the best cities in the world? Regularly yes for quality of life, sustainability and livability.  
 

People with physical disabilities are more frequently citing cobbles, bridges and stairs as an access barrier than a cycling culture, as reducing car traffic can make public spaces safer. 
 

it still ranks well as a walkable city. A city centre whose population has grown almost 30% and has a massive boom in tourism in the last twenty years might anticipate some overcrowding of paths and roads. 

You made what you think is a gotcha statement of

'the potential banning of e-bikes, cargo bikes, fat tyre bikes etc in bike lanes is being considered for the whole of Amsterdam - in fact a number of cities in the Netherlands are considering similar bans.'

Which i pointed out is not what you want it to be. Commercial cycle vehicles, and motor powered vehicles are being returned to the main roads to accommodate the vast number of children, families and older people on cycle paths. Those main roads have generally less vehicles on them. 
 

Thats's logical - and reflective of an approach trying to catch up with technology and levels of use. When we get to that level of adoption here, i'm sure the same things will be discussed. 
 

Fat bikes (electric motorbikes) and 4 wheeler cargo bikes belong away from more vulnerable users for a variety of reasons.

But they're not being banned from existing, or from using roads, they're just applying a hierarchy of cycle paths users. 
 

Nb. fat bikes are currently illegal in the uk if they have a throttle and/or aren't required to be pedal assisted to move. 

[Raeburn]

-in fact, anyone can wander these streets via the comfort of Google Streetview, and decide for themselves if it’s the nightmare Rockets asserts.

[first mate]

Some of you need to remove your rose-tinted specs. Amsterdam most certainly has issues with tourism and in summer parts of it are awful. Tourists and cycling do not seem to mix. Fat bikes and souped up e-bikes are another issue and NL is looking at a ban. Please don't resort to the usual tactic of bleating on how these are motorbikes and nothing to do with cycling. If there is a problem over there you can bet your life it'll transfer over here, as soon as the e-bike revolution truly takes hold - courtesy of people like Cllr McAsh. The cycling 'movement' is already normalising incursion of motorised vehicles into what used to be pedestrian only areas.

Apparently one issue that has developed over there is of assaults on young women in local parks by boys on motorised bikes. 

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Raeburn said:

‘Some locals occasionally get frustrated with the number of tourists at peak times’. 

@Raeburn you seem to be trying to put words into my mouth - what I actually said was:

 

16 hours ago, Rockets said:

They'll probably tell you during the summer months, and especially during the height of the tourist season, that the inner-city is blighted by cyclists (especially tourists).

 

2 hours ago, snowy said:

Which i pointed out is not what you want it to be. Commercial cycle vehicles, and motor powered vehicles are being returned to the main roads to accommodate the vast number of children, families and older people on cycle paths. Those main roads have generally less vehicles on them. 

You seem to have decided what I want this to be. What is driving this is, according to Dutch media reports, is the increasing number of injuries caused by, and to, those riding e-bikes - especially fat bikes. Apparently figures from Amsterdam hospitals show an increasing number of injury admissions to those riding e-bikes - especially in the younger age groups.

Here is just one such story: https://nltimes.nl/2025/11/26/amsterdam-plans-fat-bike-ban-busiest-areas-city

And lo, look what a local politician says in that article - reflecting exactly what I was saying about downtown Amsterdam - : “I receive messages every week from Amsterdammers who say they no longer dare to go out on the road and who beg me to ban fat bikes. So I feel it is my duty to try everything within my power to address this problem,” says traffic alderman Melanie van der Horst. “For 3 years, we’ve been asking the national government to introduce measures to deal with fat bikes. And in the meantime, the problems have only gotten worse, with more unsafe fat bikes on the road and more accidents, sometimes involving very young children.”

 

2 hours ago, snowy said:

We have first hand commentary from someone there yesterday pointing out that its not the nightmare that you describe. It wasn't a nightmare when i was there this year, nor in the 20 years I've regularly visited.

And I provided my first-hand commentary - we clearly disagree but I suppose the difference is I didn't resort to a knee-jerk accusatory language and accuse someone of being an "agitator" and "troll" because I have an opinion that differs to theirs. Nor did I accuse them of posting "deliberate untruths". Pretty aggressive and inflammatory language don't you think - but it's a definite pattern displayed by many who won't hear a negative word said about cycling.

Can you not see what you are all doing here? It's getting ludicrous.

1 hour ago, Raeburn said:

-in fact, anyone can wander these streets via the comfort of Google Streetview, and decide for themselves if it’s the nightmare Rockets asserts.

And this really is beyond laughable. Imagine if I had said that - can you imagine the pile on!? 

 

[Raeburn]

Have I just won Rockets Bingo?

The statements;

‘If you want to see the manifestation of how bad things can get go to downtown Amsterdam where the frustration and anger towards cyclists is palpable’ and a whole district being ‘an utter nightmare’ due to cyclists.

Is completely different to occasional issues with tourist overcrowding ….tourists there because it’s such a nice place to visit, and not an utter nightmare.
 

If you want to discuss this separate topic be my guest, but that’s not what I was correcting 🙂

[first mate]

17 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

Is completely different to occasional issues with tourist overcrowding ….tourists there because it’s such a nice place to visit, and not an utter nightmare.

But this is an inaccurate statement. Anyone really familiar with Amsterdam and who has seen it change over the years knows tourism issues are not "occasional" but a serious issue and Dutch friends tell me it puts them off visiting the city. Growth of e-bikes and the various 'illegal' variations is a further major problem. All this is relatively new by the way. 
 

For those who want to turn London into a cycling city like Amsterdam, we should remind ourselves of the completely different topography. Amsterdam is flat, very flat. London has many very steep hills; East Dulwich is surrounded by them. Isn't it surprising then how much of a 'blight' various types of powered bikes are proving to be, even in Amsterdam? Given the much heralded benefits of pedal cycling in the world's cycling capital, with an ideal landscape for cycling and the infrastructure to support it, why do so many turn to the powered variety, I wonder? If its already a problem over there we can only wonder what will happen over here.

Edited yesterday at 11:04 by first mate

[Rockets]

@Raeburn no I do not think you have won anything - if that was your motivation then you have failed spectacularly.

I am wondering when the penny will drop for you that the whole inner-city area being a nightmare due to cyclists is the catalyst for efforts by local authorities to reduce it being a nightmare.

Anyway I am off to Google Street View to assess whether my experiences and views about Amsterdam, based on actually spending time there, are correct or not.........

4 minutes ago, first mate said:

But this is an inaccurate statement. Anyone really familiar with Amsterdam and who has seen it change over the years knows tourism issues are not "occasional" but a serious issue and Dutch friends tell me it puts them off visiting the city. Growth of e-bikes and the various 'illegal' variations is a further major problem. All this is relatively new by the way. 

I mean a local politician is saying this: "I receive messages every week from Amsterdammers who say they no longer dare to go out on the road and who beg me to ban fat bikes. So I feel it is my duty to try everything within my power to address this problem,” 

Perhaps they need to spend more time on Google Street View to see what's really going on......

[Earl Aelfheah]

Rockets objects to bike lanes, 20mph speed limits, bus lane enforcement, extended pavements, new road crossings, etc. etc.. He has no interest in improving the experience of people walking or cycling (he does give a nod to pedestrian safety,  but only rhetorically, where it can be used to rail against 'cyclists'). I can't think of a single, local road safety measure, or public realm improvement that he hasn't objected to. So yes, it's just trolling.

His responses are effectively algorithmic - 'car v's bike - car good, bike bad'. It's that binary, that basic.

Edited yesterday at 12:39 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

@Earl Aelfheah who said about Rockets "He has no interest in improving the experience of people walking or cycling".

That is a singularly arrogant statement. Are you a mind reader now?

[Rockets]

50 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

So yes, it's just trolling.

@Earl Aelfheah do you have anything constructive to add or just here for the name-calling - and the irony is you're calling me the troll...?!

52 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Rockets objects to bike lanes, 20mph speed limits, bus lane enforcement, extended pavements, new road crossings, etc. etc..

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story hey! 😉 

[march46]

Back to the actual topic: it really doesn’t matter how much hi-viz I wear if a driver is coming straight at me while looking down at the phone they’re holding on the steering wheel - exactly what happened to me yesterday on Turney Rd. I only avoided them because there were no parked cars and I had space to swerve. Encounters like this aren’t rare; they’re something I see almost every day.

That’s why it’s so strange to see people insist that hi-viz is the answer. The real issue isn’t whether potential victims can be made brighter - it’s that too many drivers are on the road without proper care or attention. Until that’s addressed, no amount of fluorescent fabric will fix the problem.