Cyclist visibility

[Raeburn]

What did I experience then?

What are all these central Amsterdam livecams showing? I can see pedestrians going about their day, people in vehicles, people on bikes, micro-mobility, cargo bikes, delivery vehicles, service vehicles, trams. Looks very harmonious to me. None of the chaos, the utter nightmare, over the entire district.

Current evidence for cross-town nightmare-chaos is  .....you, an anonymous poster, on a forum, hundreds of miles away - ?

--------

I understand this is sport to you, and you're carrying on/will carry on despite all the clear evidence. I'd say this is the definition of a troll. ...which I'll keep saying, totally undermines any reasonable points in the discussion.

Enjoy the cams, quite soothing!

[first mate]

40 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

evidence for cross-town nightmare-chaos is  .....you, an anonymous poster, on a forum, hundreds of miles away - ?

Ermm and the many videos of cycle rush-hour that can be found online demonstrating the issues that some Amsterdam residents are concerned about...plus others who have visited and have a different experience from yours.

[Raeburn]

Again, I don’t think you’ve been following this Mate. Upthread I paraphrased;

‘Some locals occasionally get frustrated with the number of tourists at peak times’  

Which is true of any tourist hotspot, and is completely different from;

‘downtown Amsterdam where the frustration and anger towards cyclists is palpable‘

‘anywhere inside Singelgracht is a nightmare for pedestrians‘

All the pedestrians in the cams seem unaware of this supposed district-wide chaos - and I reckon most of the cyclist are residents. People going to work, young people going to school, delivery riders on cargo bikes.
 

But sure, go ahead, argue with a LiveCam.

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, first mate said:

Ermm and the many videos of cycle rush-hour that can be found online demonstrating the issues that some Amsterdam residents are concerned about...plus others who have visited and have a different experience from yours.

 @first mate you must remember that only a cyclist's view of how other cyclists behave is allowed...unless it's coming from a cyclist who doesn't turn a blind eye to bad cycling! 😉

 

2 hours ago, Raeburn said:

‘Some locals occasionally get frustrated with the number of tourists at peak times’  

@Raeburn are you claiming that is what I said - a reminder of what I said below.

On 26/11/2025 at 17:20, Rockets said:

Spend some more time there, maybe have a chat to the locals - I think you'll find they'll agree with me more than you! They'll probably tell you during the summer months, and especially during the height of the tourist season, that the inner-city is blighted by cyclists (especially tourists).

At the end of the day @Raeburn is entitled to their opinion but it doesn't make mine wrong (as much as they try to project that). Maybe @Raeburnhas been visiting regularly and is basing their opinion on those visits. But what undermines their narrative and massively supports mine is that Amsterdam authorities are actively trying to police problem cycles and cyclists (in the face of rising injuries and accidents caused to and by cyclists) and no amount of protestations that a "fatbike isn't a bike but a moped" is going to change that.

[exdulwicher]

37 minutes ago, Rockets said:

But what undermines their narrative and massively supports mine is that Amsterdam authorities are actively trying to police problem cycles and cyclists (in the face of rising injuries and accidents caused to and by cyclists) and no amount of protestations that a "fatbike isn't a bike but a moped" is going to change that.

Surely it is the responsibility of the highways authority (not sure about Amsterdam but over here it'd mostly be the local council) to manage any issues within transportation? That's literally their job to look at problems, issues etc and deal with them.

That could include:
buses not running on time
too many cars
growing use of e-motorbikes / fatbikes / e-mopeds 
overcrowding at a station
etc

A few years ago, there were very few e-motorbikes and as they came along the legislation hasn't really kept up so a blind eye might have been turned to them using cycle lanes but now there are a lot more of them, they're faster than regular bikes and e-bikes and maybe the law needs changing a bit to recognise that?

That's not a "problem". It's a highways authority doing what they're paid to do. Same way as over here people are finally realising that there are simply too many cars and they might need to do something (or some things) to discourage car use a bit.

Again, not really a "problem", it's just an evolution of local needs in conjunction with some regional / national strategic oversight.

And yes, fatbikes are not e-bikes. Same with those delivery riders around here, they're not e-bikes. They're illegally modified / illegally used electric motorbikes, or electric mopeds It's really quite an important distinction. Normal legal e-bikes (25kph, pedal operated etc) are classed in law as bicycles. Electric mopeds / motorbikes, any form of bicycle with a throttle is classed as a motorbike. That's the law, regardless of what you want to believe or what the lazier elements of the media print.

Edited yesterday at 18:25 by exdulwicher

[Raeburn]

46 minutes ago, Rockets said:

no amount of protestations that a "fatbike isn't a bike but a moped" is going to change that.

“Everyone knows a fatbike is very different to an e-bike,” she said. “The tyres are wider, the bikes are heavier and you don’t need to pedal to move forward, so they are more like a moped than a bike.”

Selectively ignoring the words of the traffic police chief posted above.

Again, sure, go ahead and argue with the police.

[Rockets]

Oh dear... @Raeburn here we go again...let me explain so you can get your facts straight. The person quoted is not the traffic police chief but the deputy mayor - she is a politician (who has responsibility for, amongst other things traffic and transport): https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/governance/the-college-of-mayor-and-alderpersons/melanie-van-der-horst/

She is saying a fatbike is very different to an e-bike because Dutch central government claims you cannot differentiate between a normal e-bike and a fatbike (most are pedal assist etc) and the local authorities know they cannot ban fatbikes because it would be legally complex to do so due to how close they are to e-bikes (the key is that fatbikes can be easily modified once purchased).  She is threatening to legally challenge the Dutch government on this issue. 

She is a politician lobbying for more local control vs central government rules to address local problems with certain types of bikes (and e-scooters and large cargo bikes).

1 hour ago, exdulwicher said:

And yes, fatbikes are not e-bikes.

In the eyes of the Dutch government (law?) they are and this is the whole point and remember she is also lobbying to be able to legislate against step-on e-scooters (in your eyes what are these - extremely narrow two-wheeled standing cars?) and large cargo bikes (two wheeled electric hearses?) from using bike lanes.

 

[Raeburn]

“Everyone knows a fatbike is very different to an e-bike,”
Everyone apart from Rockets?

[exdulwicher]

14 minutes ago, Rockets said:

In the eyes of the Dutch government (law?) they are and this is the whole point and remember she is also lobbying to be able to legislate against step-on e-scooters (in your eyes what are these - extremely narrow two-wheeled standing cars?) and large cargo bikes (two wheeled electric hearses?) from using bike lanes.

The point I was making Rockets is that any decent city transportation authority is doing this sort of stuff day in day out - in fact if they weren't doing it, you'd be complaining too!

Is [xxxx] becoming an issue? What can we do about it? What needs improving in order to manage [xxxx]? What is the cause of [xxxx]? What possible solutions are there?

So let's say the use of e-scooters has become an issue. Well 10 years ago, e-scooters didn't really exist so there were no laws around them, you may as well have suggested laws around time machines. Well now, they are an issue (and they don't actually exist in legislation because the law invariably takes a while to catch up with reality).

So the solution put forward (in the UK) was to run legally recognised hire schemes using private operators (Lime, Dott, Tier etc) and use that to gather evidence as to what can / should be done about e-scooters in general.

It's not a perfect solution (cos this is the UK and we're about 40 years behind Amsterdam in this respect). But it's a mostly workable one.

Every city in the world is grappling with these sorts of dilemmas on a daily basis, tweaking things (mostly behind the scenes, the public will rarely be aware of a new algorithm at a set of traffic lights for example) and occasionally, it demands more public measures like saying "OK, back in the days when fatbikes made up 2% of city traffic, there were no real issues, but now they make up 10% it's probably time to move them off the cycle lanes, but we can take a bit of roadspace away from cars and pop in a special "big e-assist vehicle lane", everyone will be happy"

Apart from Rockets who will treat it as some massive conspiracy.

[Rockets]

42 minutes ago, Raeburn said:

“Everyone knows a fatbike is very different to an e-bike,”
Everyone apart from Rockets?

And the Dutch government apparently...I mean that's the whole point of Amsterdam (and other cities) lobbying for change....or did you miss that element of the story?

[first mate]

A further issue is that that distinction between legal and illegal e-bikes and where they can go, seems to be clear only in the minds of a few. Over here we are seeing daily incursion of all types of cycle user (whether legal or illegal) into pedestrian only areas, increasing perception of and eventually actual risk. That is the big challenge.

 

[Rockets]

@first mate absolutely. Fatbikes look like bikes (they have pedals etc) so people, understandably, bucket them in the bike category in the same way they do modified (and illegal) delivery e-bikes - they are still cyclists. 

This kind of takes us full circle as @exdulwicher acknowledges that local authorities have to course correct - often triggered when certain transport methods become problematic. Clearly, in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities, fatbikes, e-scooters and large cargo bikes have become problematic (and remember this is being driven by shocking increases in injury levels to those riding them and being injured by them). 

Remember this was all triggered by me saying inner-city Amsterdam was a cycle nightmare (especially for pedestrians). Now @Raeburn suggested it was anything but a nightmare and that it was "harmonious" and what I was saying was not true. Given the measures Amsterdam is trying to bring in I can't help but think that my experiences in Amsterdam and assessment is much closer to the reality.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't get this insistence on bundling together illegal electric mopeds, pedal assist e-bikes and push bikes / bicycles. They're clearly different and yes, there are different issues (and in the case of the latter two, benefits). 

Are all two wheeled vehicles the same? Are all four wheeled vehicles? Of course not.

Edited 4 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

Perfect timing @Earl Aelfheah!

Of course you, and others, don't, but the big challenge (and the point many of you seem oblivious to) is that the vast majority of the public see them as bikes and their riders as cyclists. In their minds if it has two wheels and pedals it's a bike and if they are causing a menace it is a menace caused by cyclists - and no amount of protestation is ever likely to change that. And look, if the Dutch government says you cannot differentiate between a fatbike and a normal e-bike you cannot expect the Dutch public (or any other public too) too either - and therein lies the issue.

BTW given Dutch local authorities are also looking at large cargo bikes how would you categorise those to separate them from bikes?

[Penguin68]

OK, I'm sorry, but I just can't resist - I do hope the next time 'the usual suspects' adumbrate on the iniquities of drivers being 'careless' they make clear whether they are referring to drivers of saloons, hatchbacks or people carriers, large medium or small SUVs or SUV style vehicles (i.e. not those based on repurposed Utility Vehicle body plans) small medium or large commercial vans, two or 3 door vehicles, sports cars, 'classic' cars . To us petrol heads they are all different and very easily distinguished between.

[exdulwicher]

42 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

OK, I'm sorry, but I just can't resist - I do hope the next time 'the usual suspects' adumbrate on the iniquities of drivers being 'careless' they make clear whether they are referring to drivers of saloons, hatchbacks or people carriers, large medium or small SUVs or SUV style vehicles (i.e. not those based on repurposed Utility Vehicle body plans) small medium or large commercial vans, two or 3 door vehicles, sports cars, 'classic' cars . To us petrol heads they are all different and very easily distinguished between.

I was just going to say, I was sure it was you on a different thread arguing the definitions of SUV vs crossover vs off-roader and getting upset that everything was being lumped in under "SUV". 

Well the same applies to bikes and there is a legal difference between e-bike (or EAPC, electrically assisted pedal cycle) and illegally modified cycles or unregistered e-moped / e-motorbikes.

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

This kind of takes us full circle as @exdulwicher acknowledges that local authorities have to course correct - often triggered when certain transport methods become problematic.

"acknowledge" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I explained it - you seemed to be under the impression that Amsterdam was flapping around panicking about e-mopeds etc, I simply pointed out that every city authority is doing this (and similar) on a daily basis. Anticipating issues, working out possible solutions, trialling them, gathering data and acting accordingly.

It's strange how it's always bikes that are the issue with you though isn't it? Paris for example has identified that the major issue is cars (of all shapes and sizes and models and engine types, Penguin!) and has taken some dramatic steps to seriously restrict them including massively increasing the parking charges for heavier vehicles (which is normally but not exclusively the SUV-style) yet you're strangely not going on about the chaos over there of too much vehicle traffic and the actions of the authorities to "ban" them (it's not a ban, it's just some restrictions and extra charges).

[Rockets]

21 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

"acknowledge" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I explained it - you seemed to be under the impression that Amsterdam was flapping around panicking about e-mopeds etc, I simply pointed out that every city authority is doing this (and similar) on a daily basis. Anticipating issues, working out possible solutions, trialling them, gathering data and acting accordingly.

They're not flapping about e-mopeds but fatbikes, e-scooters and large cargo bikes as they are the main source of the issues with bike lanes in Amsterdam and many parts of the Netherlands.

23 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

It's strange how it's always bikes that are the issue with you though isn't it?

Well, in parts of Amsterdam they are, clearly, the issue. Maybe it would be more productive if some stopped trying to dissect the cycle category into tiny subsets so they can claim these two wheeled contraptions with pedals are not actually bikes and acknowledge there may be a problem. It's typical, and so telling, of so many that when someone suggests there may be problems being caused they now default to "THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY BIKES" and invariably follow-up with "WHAT ABOUT THE CARS".

Ahem....

[Earl Aelfheah]

4 hours ago, Rockets said:

And look, if the Dutch government says you cannot differentiate between a fatbike and a normal e-bike you cannot expect the Dutch public (or any other public too) too either - and therein lies the issue.

I don't believe this is what the Dutch government says at all. They seem to be saying the exact opposite.

Your point that some people can't tell the difference between an electric moped, a pedal assist bike, and a conventional push bike / bicycle is very odd. I don't believe for a second that is true, but even if it was, it's not a good reason to just treat them as if they are the same. Should we regulate a formula 1 car and an HGV as if they're no different, if enough people are silly enough to think they're the same?

2 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

OK, I'm sorry, but I just can't resist - I do hope the next time 'the usual suspects' adumbrate on the iniquities of drivers being 'careless' they make clear whether they are referring to drivers of saloons, hatchbacks or people carriers, large medium or small SUVs or SUV style vehicles (i.e. not those based on repurposed Utility Vehicle body plans) small medium or large commercial vans, two or 3 door vehicles, sports cars, 'classic' cars . To us petrol heads they are all different and very easily distinguished between.

There are different regulations applied to different types of motor vehicle (https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories). Are you arguing that they should all be treated exactly the same? A modern Formula 1 car can accelerate from 0 - 60 in under 2 seconds and has a top speed exceeding 220 mph - By the logic of you and Rockets that makes cars for too dangerous for cities and we should probably be banning them altogether - after all we must stop trying to dissect vehicle categories into different subsets and treat them the same. Right?

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

32 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I don't believe this is what the Dutch government says at all. They seem to be saying the exact opposite.

Errr...nope: https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/15/advisors-tell-minister-attempts-distinguish-fat-bikes-law-futile-path

And the alderman was saying exactly that in the media article I first posted - this is why she is threatening to take the government to court over this.

34 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Your point that some people can't tell the difference between an electric moped, a pedal assist bike, and a conventional push bike / bicycle is very odd. I don't believe for a second that is true, but even if it was, it's not a good reason to just treat them as if they are the same. Should we regulate a formula 1 car and an HGV as if they're no different, if enough people are silly enough to think they're the same?

Well worth reading the article above for an explanation of the complexities of legislating against fatbikes without impacting other e-bikes. It's pretty clear and remember, most fat bikes are sold legally as e-bikes and are then converted. This is the issue.

36 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

That's so ridiculous. Are you making the same arguments for other vehicles classifications? Should cars and HGVs be treated the same?

No and it's clear that's not how you are dissecting the cycle category. What you are saying is like someone trying to say a "boy-racer" car is not a car. 

[first mate]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Your point that some people can't tell the difference between an electric moped, a pedal assist bike, and a conventional push bike / bicycle is very odd. I don't believe for a second that is true,

I actually think you are missing the point. It might be termed an inconvenient truth, but it possibly suits many of those riding the illegal bikes to choose not to understand the difference, and it does feel like a grey area, this allows them then to do things that pedal cyclists currently get away with, like cycling on pavements and pedestrian only places, running red lights, cycling through LTNs and areas blocked to other motorised vehicles. It is a growing problem and currently is not really being policed. I don't think the suggestion of dedicated e-bike lanes will solve this; as ever, people break the rules because they can and it suits them so to do.

Edited 3 hours ago by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

40 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Errr...nope: https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/15/advisors-tell-minister-attempts-distinguish-fat-bikes-law-futile-path

And the alderman was saying exactly that in the media article I first posted - this is why she is threatening to take the government to court over this.

Fair enough, I may have misunderstood; I thought you quoted the alderman as saying she wanted to ban fat bikes specifically (which is the opposite of saying all two wheeled vehicles should be treated the same)? Interestingly to ride an EAPC in the UK you already have to be over 14.

40 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Well worth reading the article above for an explanation of the complexities of legislating against fatbikes without impacting other e-bikes.

We already have legislated in the UK though https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules, so clearly it can't be that hard.

40 minutes ago, Rockets said:

No and it's clear that's not how you are dissecting the cycle category.

It absolutely is. There is a massive difference between an illegal e-moped / motorcycle, a pedal assist e-bike and a bicycle. The classifications are few, and really very clear. Why do you think they should be classified as if the same?

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Maybe it would be more productive if some stopped trying to dissect the cycle category into tiny subsets so they can claim these two wheeled contraptions with pedals are not actually bikes

There are far more categories of 'four wheeled contraptions'. Would it be 'more productive' if we treated them as though they were all the same and regulated accordingly?

Edited 2 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

26 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

There is a massive difference between an illegal e-moped / motorcycle, a pedal assist e-bike and a bicycle.

Clearly not in the Netherlands which is, after all, what we are talking about...good grief.....

29 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

There are far more categories of 'four wheeled contraptions'. Would it be more productive if we treated them as though they were all the same and regulated accordingly?

But what you are doing is creating a sub-category for "boy racer" cars within the car category - it's still a car - just a car modified to drive faster often driven by an idiot. Bottom-line remains that in the Netherlands fatbikes are considered e-bikes unless they are modified and the Dutch government says it is impossible to differentiate between a fatbike and an e-bike.

Very, very few people will get buzzed by a fatbike in Amsterdam and think - oooh, there goes an electric moped, well maybe @Raeburn would but where they were in Amsterdam everything was "harmonious" so one presumes they weren't buzzed by one! 😉

No-one seems too keen to offer up an alternative category for large cargo bikes - which authorities are also wanting to remove from cycle lanes - anyone got any suggestions or is that still a bike?

[Raeburn]

Authorities seem to have been able to discern the difference here.

https://nltimes.nl/2024/09/12/authorities-seize-16500-illegal-fat-bikes-capable-reaching-higher-speeds

I think we’re all in agreement that these e-motorbikes/e-mopeds need to be restricted & regulated (for a lot of reasons).

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

But what you are doing is creating a sub-category for "boy racer" cars within the car category - it's still a car - just a car modified to drive faster often driven by an idiot.

What does this mean? Are you suggesting that a moped (with a motor and throttle) is just a "boy racer" sub-category of a bicycle? It's nonsense ; Like saying a motor car is just a "boy racer" category of a pedal cart.

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Very, very few people will get buzzed by a fatbike in Amsterdam and think - oooh, there goes an electric moped

Whether they call it a moped, or a 'fatbike' or whatever (presumably it would be something in Dutch), they don't think "their goes a bicycle".

We have very clear definitions in the UK - EAPC's (pedal assist bikes), bicycles, and electric mopeds / motorbikes: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

They're clearly different and are regulated differently as a result. The same applies for the different categories of 4 wheeled motor vehicles.

Edited 1 hour ago by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

24 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Whether they call it a moped, or a 'fatbike' or whatever (presumably it would be something in Dutch), they don't think "their goes a bicycle".

No, they think there goes some kind of e-bike, I just don't believe they think there goes a motorbike or moped.