Should I buy a property that has multiple subsidence claims?

[annie2023]

I’m buying a property that has had three insurance claims in the past 20 years, with the most recent one within the last five years. Before making the purchase, I was told that the front bay window had subsidence caused by a public tree, which the council had removed, and a structural stability report was provided. This explanation seemed reasonable to me, so I made an offer, and it was accepted.

During the legal process, however, my solicitor discovered that the situation is actually more complicated. The property had a bay window subsidence claim in 2010 caused by several plants in the front garden, which the owner removed. Everything appeared fine for the next eleven years, but then subsidence was discovered again, this time due to a public tree. Despite the tree affecting the bay window, the council refused to remove it, so the issue is ongoing

All insurers have refused to provide cover for the property; only the current insurer might still accept it, depending on the underwriter’s assessment. I have no idea how expensive the premium could be — they won’t even provide a quote at this stage. They asked me to submit the full insurance claim schedule, which doesn’t look positive, and I doubt they will continue insuring the property. I have also instructed a specialist broker to find a specialist insurer for me.Imagine how frustrated my future buyer would be when I decide to sell.

In addition to this, the house has suspected drainage issues and a leaking incoming water main. The owner is aware of these problems but has been unable to carry out repairs—likely because Thames Water has not cooperated. Drainage issues are a nightmare for any buyer, and although the water main leak is less serious, it is still time-consuming to resolve with Thames Water.

The property is not cheap, and others paying the same price are buying homes with much better potential. I feel very frustrated by the number of insurance claims; I would honestly prefer if the seller had made none at all. If the insurance premium ends up being over £5,000 per year, I will definitely pull out—not because I cannot afford it, but because it would significantly reduce the pool of buyers when I eventually sell. There are plenty of straightforward properties on the market, and my budget is strong enough to choose among them. I feel very exhausted. I wasn’t even that interested in the property to begin with, and now I’ve ended up in this embarrassing situation. 

Edited 5 hours ago by annie2023

[Sue]

Just pull out, if you can 

If the owners haven't been upfront with you about these things, what else might they not have told you?

Better to lose some money now than buy it  and regret it.

Plus as you say, what would happen if you wanted to sell the house in the future?

Also, an insurer who will insure you now may not necessarily continue to do so. I have had subsidence, my then insurer withdrew my insurance as a result of the claim, and I had to go through a specialist broker to get insured.

I would say it's just not worth the risk and the hassle, irrespective of the structural stability report (which presumably isn't a guarantee?)

And don't be embarrassed! None of this is your fault!

Edited 10 hours ago by Sue

[CPR Dave]

What Sue said, I would walk, no run, away from this purchase. 

It sounds like they have completely misled you as to the position with the subsidence and let you spend money on lawyers finding out the truth.

I would not transact with such people.

 

[the_hermit]

We sold a house with subsidence providing all the paper trail and narrative upfront.  The list price was a slight discount to similar properties without subsidence issues and we got a few offers.  That's the way to do it.

Be nice to the estate agent.  Try to find out how desperate the vendor is to sell.  If they're desperate and you factor in a subsidence AND a substantial dishonesty discount compared to similar properties there might still be an opportunity but seems unlikely.

 

[Sally Eva]

n addition to this, the house has suspected drainage issues and a leaking incoming water main. The owner is aware of these problems but has been unable to carry out repairs—likely because Thames Water has not cooperated. Drainage issues are a nightmare for any buyer, and although the water main leak is less serious, it is still time-consuming to resolve with Thames Water.

 

Many houses in london have shared drains. Ours runs along the back of the block of houses to a near by road as a shared drain it is the sole responsibility of TW to fix it. They will do this if you get heavy with them. If the house you are buying is like this, the current owners need to make TW fix it. You need a better explanation not just "TW not co-operating", why haven't they been legally forced to co-operated.

Sounds very 0dd indeed. I would not trust them. I am with Sue and CPR Dave

[annie2023]

14 minutes ago, the_hermit said:

We sold a house with subsidence providing all the paper trail and narrative upfront.  The list price was a slight discount to similar properties without subsidence issues and we got a few offers.  That's the way to do it.

Be nice to the estate agent.  Try to find out how desperate the vendor is to sell.  If they're desperate and you factor in a subsidence AND a substantial dishonesty discount compared to similar properties there might still be an opportunity but seems unlikely.

 

The price isn’t as cheap as probate properties, yet the condition is basically the same as those probate houses, and most properties do not have subsidence claim history. I told the agent I was looking for a probate property, but they still ended up recommending this one to me. I don’t dislike the estate agent, I think they genuinely didn’t know! but I was indeed led into this step by step. I don’t believe the seller will lower the price, and I don’t have the time to negotiate anyway. As I said, there are many straightforward houses out there. I’ll wait to see the insurance quotation and whether the seller is willing to fix the main water drainage issue before deciding on the next step.

13 minutes ago, Sally Eva said:

n addition to this, the house has suspected drainage issues and a leaking incoming water main. The owner is aware of these problems but has been unable to carry out repairs—likely because Thames Water has not cooperated. Drainage issues are a nightmare for any buyer, and although the water main leak is less serious, it is still time-consuming to resolve with Thames Water.

 

Many houses in london have shared drains. Ours runs along the back of the block of houses to a near by road as a shared drain it is the sole responsibility of TW to fix it. They will do this if you get heavy with them. If the house you are buying is like this, the current owners need to make TW fix it. You need a better explanation not just "TW not co-operating", why haven't they been legally forced to co-operated.

Sounds very 0dd indeed. I would not trust them. I am with Sue and CPR Dave

Yes, this is something that needs to be fixed, as it’s painful to deal with TW and deal with drainage issue

[Angelina]

drop your offer price dramatically and continue, or walk away. 

[annie2023]

21 minutes ago, Angelina said:

drop your offer price dramatically and continue, or walk away. 

I don’t expect any seller to agree to a price reduction — most of them feel it’s like robbery. For example, I was buying a property on Darren Road. They asked for £870k, I offered £830k, they rejected it. Then I offered £840k and they accepted. Later we discovered party wall issues, so we didn’t want to proceed unless the price was reduced to £780k. The seller refused and told us we were dreaming，we immediately pulled out. In the end, the house dropped to £730k, then £670k, and I believe it eventually sold for around £670k. This is a stage every seller has to go through, so I don’t bother arguing. If it doesn’t feel right, I just walk away.

Edited 5 hours ago by annie2023

[Angelina]

Price reduction reflects risk. 

[womanofdulwich]

You have to think to your self,  if I buy this,  will I have problems selling it? Ofc.you will.  These kinds of properties are difficult,  and although it may be reflected in the price, it will always be hard to sell. Stay clear.

[malumbu]

30 years ago you could buy and sell houses that had been underpinned without too much worry as long as the paperwork was in place. Huge swathes of Victorian and Edwardian, and occasionally between the wars, properties are underpinned in SE London.  Many after the 1976 drought and no doubt following the increasingly common droughts we are seeing in recent decades due to climate change.

First issue was when insurers got funny, Direct Line I remember, wont insure many SE post codes.

I'm not sure why there is more concern now, although five subsidence claims is quite impressive.

As others say if is it discounted and you are prepared to take the risk...

Not sure what others think of structural surveys, difficult here is that you need to monitor movement for six months or longer.  And older properties will move slightly with the shrinkage and expansion of the clay.  Most are out of true (look at how square original door ways are); some would have moved following bombing in the blitz.

Odd how much we invest in a pile of bricks that will age and deteriorate.

[Sue]

1 hour ago, annie2023 said:

 If it doesn’t feel right, I just walk away.

But you say in a previous post that you weren't very interested in this house in the first place, and yet you have got to this point despite knowing there had been  subsidence, and then  having discovered several  issues which the present owners  hadn't disclosed?

I'm wondering at what point it would feel so  insufficiently right that you walked away?

I completely understand your exhaustion, but won't you be even more exhausted if you go ahead with this purchase?

As regards drainage issues, I  can tell you from my own experience that Thames Water will argue that it is your responsibility to deal with a drain even if from their own website content it is clearly theirs.

And you might find someone in an obscure TW  department who tells you off the record that you are right, but that his  department is not the department which deals with repairs, and he has no contact with that department, and he asks you not to quote him or mention his name, or he will get into trouble 🙄

Edited 4 hours ago by Sue

[beansprout]

Well don’t buy in ED… 

Other places which  don’t have these issues abit further out… with good transport links, unless you are determined to buy in ED.

You might just have been unlucky with a greedy owner… problem is two fold, so I understand.. Owner has to by law, inform you of subsidence, knot weed etc . 

Buyers market and any competent agent, should have know there would be problems….

Other alternative is to pay a buying agent..

[annie2023]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

But you say in a previous post that you weren't very interested in this house in the first place, and yet you have got to this point despite knowing there had been  subsidence, and then  having discovered several  issues which the present owners  hadn't disclosed?

I'm wondering at what point it would feel so  insufficiently right that you walked away?

I completely understand your exhaustion, but won't you be even more exhausted if you go ahead with this purchase?

As regards drainage issues, I  can tell you from my own experience that Thames Water will argue that it is your responsibility to deal with a drain even if from their own website content it is clearly theirs.

And you might find someone in an obscure TW  department who tells you off the record that you are right, but that his  department is not the department which deals with repairs, and he has no contact with that department, and he asks you not to quote him or mention his name, or he will get into trouble 🙄

I honestly can’t believe how TW operates. Just like the councils and UK Power Networks — what kind of people are they? I’ve cried my way through some projects because I had to liaise with these departments. No wonder I feel like running away every time their names come up.

I first started thinking about walking away when I noticed the main water issue with TW (which would delay the project), the potential drainage problem, and the higher insurance claims than what I was initially told, plus the ongoing issues. Subsidences can be very different,  my current house definitely had subsidence back in 50 years ago, but the previous owner never made any claims, and there has never been a drainage issue or damp issue. All of this has increased my concern about the project time and resale value. I don’t want this to turn into a liability instead of an asset. 

I’m now also looking at properties in Clapham common, same price, a lot bigger

Edited 3 hours ago by annie2023

[beansprout]

Not sure what you are looking for, but my suggestion would be around Forest Hill, certain parts of Bromley and West Wickham  Telegraph Hill.

All nice areas- safe and you get more for your money.

Really depends on how you travel, or don’t.. as inn needing good transport links to City.

Like I said, feel free to pm me.. abit difficult to advise if not sure what you are after, but pretty sure not a flat! 

oh, West Dulwich and Herne Hill area.

 

[annie2023]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

30 years ago you could buy and sell houses that had been underpinned without too much worry as long as the paperwork was in place. Huge swathes of Victorian and Edwardian, and occasionally between the wars, properties are underpinned in SE London.  Many after the 1976 drought and no doubt following the increasingly common droughts we are seeing in recent decades due to climate change.

First issue was when insurers got funny, Direct Line I remember, wont insure many SE post codes.

I'm not sure why there is more concern now, although five subsidence claims is quite impressive.

As others say if is it discounted and you are prepared to take the risk...

Not sure what others think of structural surveys, difficult here is that you need to monitor movement for six months or longer.  And older properties will move slightly with the shrinkage and expansion of the clay.  Most are out of true (look at how square original door ways are); some would have moved following bombing in the blitz.

Odd how much we invest in a pile of bricks that will age and deteriorate.

Yes, Direct Line automatically rejected it when I tried to get a quote. Insurers really are a nightmare, and they have a huge psychological impact on buyers. When you’re about to put £1m into a pile of bricks, and the insurance companies either refuse to insure it or quote an outrageous premium, of course it’s going to scare anyone.

I’m not actually worried about subsidence in this house main building , but the bay window has definitely been affected by that tree, and the council won’t remove it. When the movement continues, rebuilding the bay window would cost at least £40k. The seller will never admit this, but there are already houses on that street where the bay windows have had to be rebuilt.

6 minutes ago, beansprout said:

Not sure what you are looking for, but my suggestion would be around Forest Hill, certain parts of Bromley and West Wickham  Telegraph Hill.

All nice areas- safe and you get more for your money.

Really depends on how you travel, or don’t.. as inn needing good transport links to City.

Like I said, feel free to pm me.. abit difficult to advise if not sure what you are after, but pretty sure not a flat! 

oh, West Dulwich and Herne Hill area.

 

If not East Dulwich, I’m now looking towards the west. There are a lot of subsidence issues with properties in Forest Hill, and Bromley and West Wickham aren’t really for me. I’m not interested in any part of Dulwich except ED, ND and Dulwich Village — and obviously ED offers the best value.

[beansprout]

What happened to Clapham? You are going to get subsidence in most places.. if you have the money and thinking about resale or letting plus schools, amenities then certain parts of Herne Hill would be fine..

Plenty of people on forum would love to have clearly the budget you have to buy a property..

Your problem is, tbh.. you want a bargain and that is not going to happen in the areas you are looking in..

Most properties, with respect are sold before coming on the market or via word of mouth..

My advice, work with an agent not several as they compare notes, accept the fact that if you go via an agent, owner will be paying a fee to the agent..

Guess you are what is called “time waster”…

 

 

Actually, why don’t you buy in the country.. 

[CPR Dave]

I don't think you actually will find any properties at all in Clapham common for £1m that are a lot bigger than a probate property in East Dulwich. 

 

A lot smaller for the same money maybe. 

[NewWave]

As Sue mentioned..You stated in your 1st post that you were'nt really interested in this property initially so I dont understand how you let it get to this point...

If you were'nt that interested and it was'nt 'cheap' I really don't know why you did'nt just walk away and not even go as far as putting in an offer.

I'm sorry but thats my view..you got yourself into this situation for a property you don't love and sounds like a money pit.

I really don't have sympathy.