Wandsworth issuing PCNs to "speeding" cyclists on Tooting Bec Common

[Rockets]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wandsworth-council-speeding-fines-cyclists-tooting-bec-common-b1262735.html

[malumbu]

Do you have a view?  I would have expected that it is difficult to enforce as bikes don't have, and don't need to have, speedometers.  But we've debated that ad infinitum before.  It would be good to have new things to discuss.  I'll shut up......

[exdulwicher]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Do you have a view?  

It's standard for Rockets to just drop in a headline with no other text, no opinion (at this stage anyway!) and no wider discussion points.

Also (from reading the article) it was one fine which was subsequently rescinded. They usually are - even when there are allegedly local byelaws to "enforce" some sort of action against speeding cyclists, no-one is aware of it and most don't have a speedo and most of the very occasional enforcement is so embarrassingly over the top that the council will eventually just sigh and let it go.

The Royal Parks (notably Richmond) have occasional "crackdowns" on speeding cyclists which then ends up in an interminable back-and-forth as to whether or not speed limits apply to bikes (they don't) and whether or not Richmond Park has a byelaw to cover it (it does / it doesn't / it does again / it doesn't / oh no it really doesn't...). 

What do we reckon for this one? 8 pages? Can we run a sweepstake on how many times someone suggests number plates and road tax for cyclists? Or can we just pick one of the eighteen older threads where this sort of nonsense has been done to death by the same people and reference that?

[Rockets]

On 19/12/2025 at 13:22, malumbu said:

Do you have a view?

On this one I am a bit torn to be honest as, many years ago, the same Parks Police tried to issue a PCN to me for cycling on the path close to the river in Battersea Park.

On the other hand there is clearly an issue with cyclists breaking the park speed limit and if I look at Dulwich Park very few cyclists adhere to the 5pm speed limit set in it and I can see why there may be tension between dog walkers and fast moving cyclists - last week I saw a full kit wally on his £6k bike get angry with a dog walker and he had to brake sharply to avoid their dog - he was cycling way too fast for the park and got little sympathy from the other people on foot around him.

I presume those who say that if any car driver falls foul of rules and gets a PCN then they take the same approach to these cyclists - if you are travelling faster than the park speed limit you cannot complain if you get a PCN?

 

[march46]

If only all dog walkers in Dulwich Park followed the rules about keeping their dogs on a lead. 

[Rockets]

@march46 the incident happened in an area where dog walkers dont have to keep dogs on a short lead. 

And the cyclist in question was doing way more than the 5pm speed limit and was in the wrong - and everyone around him told him so. He seemed suitably chastised as he sped off at speed, clearly not learning his lesson.

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Rockets

[first mate]

@march46 Dogs do not have to be kept on a lead in all sections of the park. However, small children also wander around in every area of the park, so presumably you would at least concede that pedestrians should take precedence and cyclists should cycle slowly and with care.

[Rockets]

Cyclists should be observing the 5mph speed limit but most do not - some of those cargo bike boneshaker contraptions laden with small children can be witnessed flying through the park at breakneck speeds heading from Court Lane to the Dulwich Village entrance and vice versa.

[malumbu]

54 minutes ago, first mate said:

@march46 Dogs do not have to be kept on a lead in all sections of the park. However, small children also wander around in every area of the park, so presumably you would at least concede that pedestrians should take precedence and cyclists should cycle slowly and with care.

Probably best if you keep small children on a lead.  Certainly in pub gardens.  That is an amusing comment, not aimed at any tragedy.  Although as times move on and many parents are too busy looking at their phones, leads may be useful where small children running around can annoy others.

[march46]

Interested to know which sections don’t require dog owners to use a lead - there are signs at all entrances and I have never noticed signs reversing those instructions anywhere. 

[Rockets]

The dogs on lead signs are on the inner section of the park - around the lake etc.

[first mate]

Anyone that is a regular user of Dulwich Park and Peckham Rye knows that dogs are not kept on lead in all sections, nor required to be.

Anyway, this is not a thread about dogs but cyclists. I agree that cyclists should adhere to 5mph or less if lots of people around. In my experience, the worst offenders are Lime bike users. No doubt the temptation to hurtle through at 15 mph is too great

[exdulwicher]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

Cyclists should be observing the 5mph speed limit...

We've been through this before. Speed limits don't apply to cyclists. 

5mph on a bike is the sort of speed that has most people falling off. 

None of that is to say that people shouldn't behave sensibly but the whole speed limit thing is ridiculous.

Also, how many drivers adhere to that. I think you'll find it's vanishingly few... 

[Rockets]

16 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

We've been through this before. Speed limits don't apply to cyclists. 

Even on private land like within a park, do local councils not have the power to set the speed limit within parks? Southwark's website says the 5mph speed limit in Dulwick Park applies to ALL vehicles and there is 5mph signage throughout both the car accessible and non-car accessible parts.

Also, and very interestingly, the weird policing by Wandsworth parks police of 12mph, which seemed like a rather odd and random speed to be enforcing, is, apparently, because there are some long forgotten bye-laws about cycle speeds from the GLC days that still apply across London which means they can issue PCNs and the speed limit in the park does very much apply to bikes which they are invoking due to problems caused by cyclists in the park.

https://road.cc/content/news/speed-gun-deployed-wandsworth-parks-317353

Edited 18 hours ago by Rockets

[malumbu]

43 minutes ago, first mate said:

Anyone that is a regular user of Dulwich Park and Peckham Rye knows that dogs are not kept on lead in all sections, nor required to be.

Anyway, this is not a thread about dogs but cyclists. I agree that cyclists should adhere to 5mph or less if lots of people around. In my experience, the worst offenders are Lime bike users. No doubt the temptation to hurtle through at 15 mph is too great

I'd be far more interested in a discussion on whether small children should be a on a lead.  I do see this with childminders and nurseries sometimes.  https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5100346-to-think-theres-nothing-wrong-with-toddlers-on-leads

 

[exdulwicher]

8 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Also, and very interestingly, the weird policing by Wandsworth parks police of 12mph, which seemed like a rather odd and random speed to be enforcing

The 12mph speed is generally regarded as a sort of tipping point. Helmets for example are tested to withstand a fall at 12mph. Shared use foot / cycle paths generally have a guidance for designers of 12mph, the idea being that if you're faster than that you should be on the road. 

Also 12mph is 20kph so it's kind of a logical number.

It's all a bit archaic and disorganised and of course byelaws from the GLC days did not predict e-bikes (and to be clear, I'm talking about the legal ones that cut off at 15.5mph, you have to pedal to make them work, blah blah. Not the illegal souped up e-motorbikes which are already illegal for multiple other reasons!)

[Rockets]

I wonder what bye-law they are leaning in to for issuing the PCNs and why the GLC initiated it?

I doubt Southwark would go after cyclists in the way Wandsworth do - as I said they tried to issue one to me on my bike many years ago and I can't imagine Southwark driving a speed monitoring van with a speed camera in the back into the park to issue PCNs (as Wandsworth have)....although let's be honest the gusto with which Southwark issue PCNs to car drivers if that ever dries up they'll probably come for the cyclists!

If they enforced the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park though there would be rich pickings given the majority of cyclists are doing far faster than that. Maybe something has to be done that goes beyond the stencilled message to cyclists at the entrances to Dulwich Park to watch their speed as at times it feels very dangerous - does anyone know who the man is who flies around the park doing fast laps on that half recumbent bike?

Edited 17 hours ago by Rockets

[exdulwicher]

14 minutes ago, Rockets said:

If they enforced the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park though there would be rich pickings 

Yep. Most joggers, a fair few kids, and pretty much every driver and cyclist! 

Parkrun would be fascinating.

Ooh, just under 30 minutes for 5km, yep, that's 10kph, 6.2mph, you're in breach too, just pay the nice chap from Southwark over there. See you next week! 

[Rockets]

The speed limit doesn't apply to joggers as they are not a vehicle.....;-)

[exdulwicher]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

The speed limit doesn't apply to joggers as they are not a vehicle.....;-)

Doesn't apply to bikes either but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting every last one of them fined! 

[Rockets]

But under the UN's 1969 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic bicycles are defined as vehicles so thus are bound by the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park are they not? It is a private road with speed limit set by the council.

Edited 15 hours ago by Rockets

[exdulwicher]

17 minutes ago, Rockets said:

But under the UN's 1969 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic bicycles are defined as vehicles so thus are bound by the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park are they not? It is a private road with speed limit set by the council.

It was 1968 and it still didn't set a speed limit for bicycles.

Seriously Rockets, this has been done to death and I mentioned it in one of the first replies on here. Speed limits do not apply to bicycles. You can be done for the wonderfully named Careless and Wanton Cycling but not for speeding. And literally every time someone tries doing it (even in the headline you linked to in the opening post) whatever fines are issued are almost invariably rescinded after being argued about for a while.

I do wonder though, what would you say if a driver was issued a PCN for driving at (say) 9mph? Would you be on here saying they were caught bang to rights, should pay the fine immediately and never set foot in the park again? Or would you come up with the usual stuff about "war on motorists", the council treating the hard-working motorist as an easy target / cash cow, couldn't they go and find some real criminals, what a ridiculously stringent speed limit... ?

Also, you try riding a bike at a steady 5mph. Not easy is it, especially a laden e-cargo bike. You need a bit of speed to keep them stable. 

[first mate]

Where you have bicycles and pedestrians sharing space (with pedestrians taking priority as you would expect in a smaller park like Dulwich Park) doesn't it make sense to ensure riders slow right down? My main beef is with Lime bike riders some who seem to want to go as fast as they can in the park, sometimes listening to music through headphones. Is cycling fast with headphones plugged in, along a space shared with pedestrians a good idea?

[Rockets]

 

@exdulwicher

You accept though that councils have the power to set speeds limits within parks don't you and that they would do this by specfic orders relevant to the park?

And you accept that Dulwich Park has set that speed limit to 5mph within Dulwich Park and have clearly signposted it?

And do you accept that if the said order calls out ALL vehicles having to adhere to that speed that bikes would also need to adhere?

2 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

I do wonder though, what would you say if a driver was issued a PCN for driving at (say) 9mph?

Many of your cohort would say that if the rules that are set by the order have been broken then it's a fair cop.

2 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

Also, you try riding a bike at a steady 5mph. Not easy is it, especially a laden e-cargo bike. You need a bit of speed to keep them stable. 

But if it is the speed limit and you can't keep within it it's a moot point isn't it? Isn't that like someone saying their car is difficult to keep under 20mph?

 

1 hour ago, first mate said:

Where you have bicycles and pedestrians sharing space (with pedestrians taking priority as you would expect in a smaller park like Dulwich Park) doesn't it make sense to ensure riders slow right down? My main beef is with Lime bike riders some who seem to want to go as fast as they can in the park, sometimes listening to music through headphones. Is cycling fast with headphones plugged in, along a space shared with pedestrians a good idea?

And this is the issue - mixing uses in a confined space creates challenges especially if some are travelling at much greater speed than others.

Lime bikes are an issue and so are cargo bikes in Dulwich Park and a number of dog walkers who saw the angry cyclist vs dog incident said that there have been a number of cyclist vs dog accidents in the park.

[ianr]

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

But under the UN's 1969 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic bicycles are defined as vehicles so thus are bound by the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park are they not? It is a private road with speed limit set by the council.

Can you please provide a link to the source of your information about a 5 mph speed limit for cyclists in Dulwich Park.

Edited 12 hours ago by ianr