Wandsworth issuing PCNs to "speeding" cyclists on Tooting Bec Common

[Earl Aelfheah]

19 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Why don't you both provide recent photos of the relevant signs so everyone reading this can see what they say.

I don't think there is any disagreement on what the signs say. Rocks 'killer point' was just that the sign says there is a 5 mph speed limit. It's not the revelation he thinks.

19 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Are you all in the same retirement home or different ones as you seem to spend all your days posting? 🤣

🤣 This is a fair point. It's possible I am easily distracted from what I should be doing on occasion 😉.

Edited Wednesday at 15:12 by Earl Aelfheah

[Dulwich dweller]

The Internet and social media has a lot to answer for. This thread is bonkers 😆

[Rockets]

14 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Are you all in the same retirement home or different ones as you seem to spend all your days posting? 🤣

We were but I used to unicycle around the main living room area and some people didn't like my, what they considered, inconsiderate cycling and @Earl Aelfheah and I got into a row because they tried to claim I wasn't on a bike but a single-wheeled traction engine and so shouldn't be claiming I was a cyclist. I got moved to another home where people are more embracing of all forms of cycling! 😉

[malumbu]

9 hours ago, Dulwich dweller said:

The Internet and social media has a lot to answer for. This thread is bonkers 😆

Nope I think whilst amusing not quite right.  People with strong views (including me?) will often support them with quotes from news outlets and other sources of data, perhaps at times selectively.  Worthy of a separate thread.

Personal experience is also valuable.  I can say hand on heart cycling can be more hazardous due to poor riding by delivery cyclists.  Obviously you have to be more aware.  And similarly that pedestrians are more likely to walk out in front of me, being on their screen.  Again whether I am cycling, driving and at times walking, need to be aware and taking action to minimise hazard.

Whether 1000s of of cyclists are killed or seriously injured due to illegal ebikes, or 1000s of pedestrians dying due to not looking before crossing, I don't know.  

 And yes happy to discuss bonkers conspiracy theories too and how social media drives this - Zelensky and his international property portfolio being one of my recent faves.  I've read it on line, and no way could it be Russian misinformation.  

 

[Dulwich dweller]

12 hours ago, malumbu said:

Nope I think whilst amusing not quite right. 

In your opinion which I respect.

[Rockets]

Here you go - here are the signs that can be found around the park at the entrance points of the shared-use route - this is the one near the Court Lane entrance. One blue circle sign giving a mandatory order (these groups only) and a red circle sign indicating a prohibition on said route (speed limit).

 

 

 

[Spartacus]

Thanks 

I am reading that as a shared space only for pedestrians, dogs and cyclists. With a maximum speed of 5 mph for all, including cyclists. 

Someone else maybe able to interpret it differently (if my understanding is not correct) 

Doesn't mention cars or horses allowed 

@Earl Aelfheah have yiu got photos of a different sign saying otherwise? 

[Earl Aelfheah]

You can take it as you like. Read my previous post. What’s the byelaw that makes a 5mph limit for people on bicycles (or for dogs, or for people on foot for that matter) legally enforceable?

Councils can’t make law via a sign.

And if you read that sign in the way you suggest, there are going to be a lot of dogs getting nicked 🤣

Edited 16 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Spartacus]

Ahhh 

The beauty of a cyclists logic, ignoring signs they "think" don't apply to them. 

That explains the red light problem 🤣

Edited 3 hours ago by Spartacus

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Councils can’t make law via a sign.

But they can set a speed limit for cycles on a shared-use route. And they have. It's 5mph!

So @Earl Aelfheah you now seem to be saying the council don't have the authority to do this or enforce this? 

Your tune has changed a bit hasnt it?

Can you perhaps share with us how you interpret the signs that are all around the shared-use route around Dulwich Park? 

Or maybe share the signs that you are so sure exist to counter this?

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 06/01/2026 at 19:34, Earl Aelfheah said:

Without a bye-law or other specific statutory regulation applying to the parkland, any speed-limit sign in a park is not legally enforceable. It might act as a guidance or policy notice but not a legal obligation enforceable in court.

👆 as I already said. No one has argued that there is no 5 mph limit, or that there aren’t 5 mph signs; just that the byelaws refer only to motor vehicles and so the limit is only enforceable in relation to motor vehicles.

Your interpretation of the two signs (that the second one applies only in the context of the first), is both wrong and also irrelevant to the point about what is and isn’t legally enforceable.

Presumably applying your logic, the 5mph limit also applies to dogs and to people on foot. Is that correct? Makes Parkrun interesting 🤣 (for context a brisk walking pace is generally 3 to 4.5 mph)

As the shared path sign doesn’t show motor vehicles, are you also suggesting the speed limit sign does not therefore apply to cars in the park? 🤔 

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah
formatting

[first mate]

It is my experience of Dulwich Park that cyclists riding fast through the shared use space seem to expect pedestrians to get out of their way, rather than giving way. In that respect the Southwark advisory is not adhered to. The biggest culprits are the Lime riders.

The potential issue is that Southwark want to build Greenway cycling routes to encourage cycling and make it safer, but if this happens in any numbers I am not sure how the shared space advisory to give way to pedestrians can work. 

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, first mate said:

It is my experience of Dulwich Park that cyclists riding fast through the shared use space seem to expect pedestrians to get out of their way

This is not my experience (bikes have always gone round me), but I do agree that there are too many who go too fast. I don't know what it means to build 'greenway cycle routes' - can you expand on that? Does it mean having segregated / dedicated cycle lanes in the park? 

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

6 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

don't know what it means to build 'greenway cycle routes' -

It simply means Southwark want to encourage cyclists to use routes that link cycling through parks/green spaces/ quietways. The idea being its safer for cyclists. However, there are inherent issues with this, as I pointed out.

I was also interested that the bike hire business that operates inside the park states the following below (presumably the business must liaise with Southwark officers and have not simply made up their advisory).

"Are there any safety rules I should be aware of?

Yes, cyclists must adhere to speed limits, yield to pedestrians, and stay on designated paths while riding in the park."

[Earl Aelfheah]

I have no problem at all with Southwark encouraging people to use their bicycles in a park. I'm amazed you do.

It does feel like there are a handful of people who regularly post in this section, who don't want bicycles on our roads, or in our parks, or really anywhere else.

Edited 4 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[HeadNun]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

 

It does feel like there are a handful of people who regularly post in this section, who don't want bicycles on our roads, or in our parks, or really anywhere else.

Both Rockets and First Mate are cyclists. 

I have experienced cyclists too fast in parks and ringing their bells to signal walkers out of the way. A dog was hit by a bike the year before last and killed, which is why there are now signs at the opening of the Dulwich Park to remind cyclists that pedestrians and dogs should have priority. 

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

👆 as I already said. No one has argued that there is no 5 mph limit, or that there aren’t 5 mph signs; just that the byelaws refer only to motor vehicles and so the limit is only enforceable in relation to motor vehicles.

 

How clearly blinkered you are and how far have you gone down your own rabbit hole ? 

The blue sign clearly shows the shared path is only for pedestrians, who get priority due to the size of the figure, dogs and cyclists. 

Basically no cars or motor vehicles.

Therefore the 5mph clearly isn't aimed at motor vehicles as they are not allowed to use the shared space. The only logical conclusion is that it is setting the maximum speed limit for all users of shared spaces. 

Might be interesting to ask the council directly what the rules / bylaws are if yiu doubt who the sign is aimed at using [email protected] 

But, as per your usual modus operandi, you will not follow that up as you don't think its your job to verify your position. (Maybe you will prove me wrong here)

However if you don't  verify it, then you appear to be just talking bull manure to feel self Important (IMHO) 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

16 minutes ago, HeadNun said:

I have experienced cyclists too fast in parks and ringing their bells to signal walkers out of the way. 

Yes, I said I:

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

agree that there are too many who go too fast

Ringing a bell is not a sign that you want someone to 'get out of the way', but should be used as a polite way to let someone know you're approaching / passing. Have you often had cyclists who have cycled straight at you, or into you, rather than going around you? I just don't recognise this picture of cyclists expecting people to give way to them in the park, and I'm there most days.

10 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Basically no cars or motor vehicles.

Therefore the 5mph clearly isn't aimed at motor vehicles as they are not allowed to use the shared space.

This is just wrong. Motor vehicles with permits are allowed in the park. There is a 5 mph speed limit for them.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[march46]

This thread is insane. There are many drivers who have access to the park via its permit scheme for people with disabilities or poor mobility, or as a contractor or delivery driver. It’s clear that the 5mph sign applies to those vehicles, as they have speedometers and can therefore actually comply or not. 
 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's absolutely insane. You have people who seem to want park users not to exceed a brisk walking pace, unless they're in a motor vehicle, who object to Southwark encouraging people to use their bicycles in the park, and who object to a 20 mph speed limit on a road just outside the gates - on which there have been numerous serious injuries and deaths.

Edited 2 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[exdulwicher]

9 minutes ago, march46 said:

This thread is insane. There are many drivers who have access to the park via its permit scheme for people with disabilities or poor mobility, or as a contractor or delivery driver. It’s clear that the 5mph sign applies to those vehicles, as they have speedometers and can therefore actually comply or not. 

+1.

The only other possible "vehicle" to which it could apply is e-scooters and even there I reckon it's a very grey area. The easiest option would simply be to ask Lime (and any other local providers) to speed-restrict their e-scooters via a geofence through the park rather than to try and enforce a 5mph speed limit in the traditional manner.

Either way, it still doesn't apply to bicycles.

[Rockets]

For those of you who are, perhaps willfully, ignoring what the signs are telling people let me explain how the Highway Code would interpret it.

The shared-use route is for the exclusive use of pedestrians (many with playing children), dogs (off the lead) and cyclists but pedestrians and dogs have priority. No other vehicles are allowed on the shared-use route.

Any vehicles permitted to use the route (in this case cyclists per the blue sign) have to adhere to the 5mph speed limit.

So the thread is not insane. What is worrying is the will full misinterpretation of the rules and the constant nonsense that somehow cyclists should not adhere to the rules.

2 hours ago, first mate said:

"Are there any safety rules I should be aware of?

Yes, cyclists must adhere to speed limits, yield to pedestrians, and stay on designated paths while riding in the park."

@first mate again, yet more evidence that cyclists must adhere to the speed limit and clearly the operator of the bike rental company is aware the speed limit does apply to bikes - but no doubt someone will ludicrously argue it proves nothing.

It is incredibly clear that there is a 5mph limit for cyclists in Dulwich Park - I may encourage Cllr's Leeming and Newens to go with their speed-guns and and a couple of PCSOs to start policing it!!!

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

Here is the sign (just in front of the one that Rocks has posted). I've screen grabbed it off Streetview so it's blurred out some of the instructions, but makes it clear that cars should abide by a 5 mph speed limit.

[Rockets]

1 minute ago, exdulwicher said:

Either way, it still doesn't apply to bicycles.

But @exdulwicher you are wrong. It does apply to cyclists - cyclists are not immune to rules implemented to protect more vulnerable shared-use route users than themselves.

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 minutes ago, Rockets said:

The shared-use route is for the exclusive use of pedestrians

It is not. This is absolute nonsense.