The Positive Birth Movement

[sillywoman]

Looking forward to seeing everyone who can make it tonight.

7-9pm, East Dulwich location (Please Pm me if you need the address).

SW x

[SE22mum]

I can't make it tonight, but would be really interested in coming another time. Please keep us all informed!

[Natalie Doula]

Hi all,

This sounds so lovely and supportive. I have just seen this so have missed the meeting but please keep updated on next meeting.

Thanks

Natalie

[sillywoman]

Well it was another lovely evening with discussions ranging far and wide. Our main theme was 'language'. We talked about language in pregnancy, & how it can impact on women's perspectives of the choices they have; how professionals are educated in regard to communication; how women in labour might find communicating their needs difficult, or different from the way they are able to communicate in everyday life; the role of birth partners & birth supporters in communication, trust; research; differing needs & choices, and finally back to language again with communication & comprehension if your mother-tongue isn't English. Remarkably few biscuits were consumed (too busy talking maybe?)

Thankyou very much to the Mums that came, it was a real privilege to have that time with you to just 'talk birth', and that to Jac2blade I think we have a new name. We will be 'Birth Talk ED' - 'cos that's what we do- talk birth!

The next meeting will be Thursday February 6th, and it's a morning meeting to try and encompass those of you with bedtime commitments. We haven't decided a topic yet so any suggestions will be welcome. Please put the date in your diary if you're interested. Babies & children welcome.

SWx

[simonethebeaver]

I'm so sorry not to make it. I will definitely be at the next meeting.

[sillywoman]

For those of you 'over the hill' I've heard on the grapevine that there will be a Forest Hill/ Honor Oak/ Sydenham 'Positive Birth' group starting up very soon. Watch this space. . . . .

[Phoenix]

Hi all,

Indeed as the lovely Sillywoman said, another group will be held ?over the hill? for all interested. This will also be a monthly informal meet up to talk birth and any topics relating that people would like to discuss.

The first meeting will be Monday 10th February @ 19.30hrs till 21.30hrs. Please pm me for my address if you would like to come. :)

[sillywoman]

Just a reminder that 'Birth Talk Ed' will be meeting next on Thursday 6th of February 10am-12pm. The topic is "Birth as a right of passage". PLease PM me if you'd like the venue details.

Thanks SWx

[Jog72]

Hi all just to let you know that the next meeting of the Herne Hill positive birth group group will be on Saturday February 8 10.30-12.30, in case that time and place suits any of you or your friends. Do PM me for the address if you think you might make it.

Best wishes.

Jo

[Saffron]

sillywoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just a reminder that 'Birth Talk Ed' will be

> meeting next on Thursday 6th of February

> 10am-12pm. The topic is "Birth as a right of

> passage". PLease PM me if you'd like the venue

> details.

>

> Thanks SWx

See this beautiful post from a VBAC mother, on rites of passage: http://www.rebellesociety.com/2013/03/05/birth-a-rite-of-passage-for-mother-baby/

We could have opened our own birth center the way the house was set up. The living room had the birth pool, candles and calm music. The dining room was set up with all the supplies and towels that we would need including the pack and play with heated towels and blankets for the babe. The kitchen was set almost like a craft service table on a film set. Upstairs was prepped and ready for recovery. The bed was ready, music, aroma therapy and other essentials.

Oh, if only we all had the time, energy, opportunity, and MONEY for such arrangements!

Interesting to note on how the author's positive experience of her second labour & birth seemed to ameliorate the stress of her caesarean previously. As a rite of passage, how much power do second births have to 'rewrite' the experiences of a first birth? Is birth as a rite of passage different then, for couples who only ever have one birth?

xx

[Saffron]

On rites of passage and positivity...

Lavender et al (1999) 'A prospective study of women's views of factors contributing to a positive birth experience'

The authors analysed statements from a large cohort of primigravid women and noted that the main themes which emerged included "support, information, intervention, decision making, control, pain relief and trial participation" as contributing factors to a positive birth. The study also concluded (not surprisingly) that "most women are able to identify important contributors to a positive intrapartum experience. Midwives have an important role in identifying these contributors and supporting women to fulfil their individual needs."

Hodnett (2002) 'Pain and women's satisfaction with the experience of childbirth: A systematic review'

This article picks up where Lavender at al left off, looking at satisfaction (positivity) in childbirth with particular attention to pain and pain relief. Whereas Lavendar et al were able to note that women identified pain relief as a contributing factor to a positive experience, Hodnett noted that other factors can trump pain relief/perceptions of pain in creating the perception of a positive outcome.

Four factors ?personal expectations, the amount of support from caregivers, the quality of the caregiver-patient relationship, and involvement in decision making? appear to be so important that they override the influences of age, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, childbirth preparation, the physical birth environment, pain, immobility, medical interventions, and continuity of care, when women evaluate their childbirth experiences.

Of those 4 factors, one of them is entirely under the individual's control: Personal expectations. Our personal expectations (before, during, and after childbirth) can override pain and medical interventions. That's pretty powerful support for positivity in birth and beyond!

[SE22mum]

ooooh, wish I could come as this is close to my heart and experience!

My first birth was positive in that it completely exceeded my expectations and I felt very proud of myself. Yet very soon into my second pregnancy I realised that my expectations and belief in myself had widened so much that I really couldn't just repeat what I did first time around, which was a hospital birth with quite a lot of intervention (induction, forceps). I also felt really nervous that in hospital I would ONLY be able to have a birth with some kind of intervention as I'm pretty non-confrontational and the idea of having to communicate with medical staff whilst in labor is just something I cannot get. SO, decided to blow my savings on a home birth (not in UK so not available on NHS).....on the basis that I wasn't planning on having anymore children and that this was something I would remember for ever.

Needless to say it was - especially as my midwife didn't get there in time and so in the end I birthed my baby with just my partner there. As a life-affirming, positive experience it was second-to-none.

Tho, if I EVER did it again the next thing is to do it completely alone. Just you and your baby. (but not going to happen - two is quite enough!)

[sillywoman]

What lovely positive stories SE22mum. I wish you were around to be able to come too.

:D

SWx

[reren]

Such an interesting / difficult subject - i just recently hd a wonderful 2nd birth - very positive and all that i'd hoped for. I did hypno-birthing and it helped a lot. But ... Im very mindful that i was lucky. A good friend just had a second birth which wasnt the text book perfect birth she's hoped for (despite doing amazingly well). I feel really sorry for her having got her hopes up for a cosmic experience that never came. Seems to be difficult to balance the preparing in a positive way for a birth and not getting too attached to a vision for the birth you are expecting (and then feeling let down if something unexpected happens). Still i suspect the majority of people who prepare positively are fortunate enough to have their dream birth so on balance worth approaching in as positive a way as possible - whilst trying not to get too hung up on outcomes...

[SE22mum]

I think the very term "dream birth" is almost setting yourself up to fail. Actually, I think preparing positively for birth INCLUDES considering your expectations and not forcing yourself to "achieve" anything. I think it includes realising that your birth might not go as you expect it, and that that is ok. That although you can do loads to prepare yourself, there are other forces at work, and the best laid plans etc. My midwife had a very useful phrase, which was "you will have the birth that you will have". Or as a friend said "it will come out somehow...".

....which is what I tried to bear in mind when I was packing my bag to go to the hospital and be induced for my 2nd - despite having already shelled out a hefty sum for a home birth!!! Luckily for me, my daughter rose to the occasion and just popped out in time...literally a few hours before I had to go.

I have several friends who did hypnobirthing etc and when they didn't have the birth they thought they were guaranteed to have it really hit them hard. Suppose it's some kind of zen balance thing of preparing for a really good experience, and yet not blaming yourself if you don't have what you thought you were going to get! Plus, I think there is something about "positive" doesn't mean "easy"...

[Phoenix]

And if people can't make the 6th of Feb at the lovely SW, but would love to discuss this topic, I am holding another birth talk group 'over the hill' in Forest Hill/Honor Oak Park on Monday eve 10th Feb at 19.30hrs. Please pm me if you are interested :)

[Suzyrocker]

I have to say as a hypnotherapist, psychotherapist and Hypnobirthing teacher I completely agree that women shouldn't feel an added pressure to have the 'dream birth'. However, there are several things about that immediately spring mind when i hear the 'dream birth' statement, when I think about it specifically in reference to hypnobirthing.

Hypnobirthing, isn't just about having a baby.

It's as much about the preparation that takes place (if not more about) during the pregnancy as well as the actual

birth.

Whilst I accept that the preparation and practice is very much about preparing Mum for how she can navigate the birth,

it's also about drawing Dad into the process, making sure that he feels as involved and as much a part of the

pregnancy as he did when the baby was conceived.

It's about getting Mum to be mindful about the fact that she's having a baby. Which might sound crazy, but how many

pregnant women do you know that rush around like the Super Women that they are, until a week before their baby

arrives? So many! The exercises and practice are about slowing things down both physically and emotionally so that

they can tune into what's going on in their bodies - which is also a hugely invaluable tool, when it comes to giving

birth.

It's about reducing the fear and anxiety about labour during the pregnancy, so

1) they can enjoy the pregnancy more.

2) Baby's benefit from not being continuously flooded with cortisols and adrenaline as Mum feels calmer and happier

3) They go into labour with an expectancy that they can give birth with out it having to be a horror story.

Yes, I completely acknowledge and do not apologize for the fact that I ask my couples to think about their ideal scenario for birth. As a hypnotherapist and psychotherapist, I see it every day and know that when we approach life with an expectation that nothing will ever go our way - that is what tends to happen. Whilst I know you cannot wish your way to a calm and controlled birth, creating a mindset of positivity around your ability to do that is a factor. To provide light and shade to the ideal scenario, we also talk about how the fact that talking about having 'the perfect birth' is pretty meaningless in the sense that is referred to above. The perfect birth is having the birth that is right for you and your family on the day, if that means asking for gas and air or an epidural after being in labour for 5 days (as one of my recent clients had to). Does that mean does that mother has failed, no way! Not only did she give her baby the best lead up to her birth she could have done, but during the chaos that ensued around her, she remained calm and in control until she decided that the best thing to do would be to have an epidural so she could rest. I also show my couples a video of a lady who wanted a home birth, ending up in hospital, needing assistance, because she ran into special circumstances, I believe it's extremely important to acknowledge that things don't always go to plan.

The final line from the email that I received from her partner to say thank you for passing on the techniques after their born, sums up why I believe that this type of preparation when positioned correctly is not setting couples up for failure was - "We only had one meltdown in the 5 day period, this experience could have been dreadful, but it wasn't and I really want to thank you and the Wise Hipp for helping us in such a profound way." As a practitioner, whilst I love hearing stories like Reren's who was one of my clients, it's hearing about the stories that go to plan where because the mother has followed the coursed and done her preparation that she is able to call upon to help her navigate calmly and in control, what could other wise be a very scary or traumatic experience.

Hypnobirthing is not a magic wand and any teacher who says that it is, is not being responsible however, I wholeheartedly believe that the tools and skills taught are invaluable to contributing to many more women having positive birth experiences and it should be available on the NHS :-) (If you have managed to get to the end of this post - well done)!

[Saffron]

I don't think there's anything wrong with envisaging an ideal birth scenario, so long as people don't become inextricably tied to it.

Interestingly, one of the topics which was highlighted in our last meet up, was the idea of 'loss' in pregnancy and beyond. This was loss in the sense of mindfulness that everything is NOT always going to go exactly to your expectations. Just a couple rough examples... In a scheduled C-section, you lose the natural, unimpeded element of a straightforward vaginal birth. Conversely in a straightforward vaginal birth, you lose the element of timing, i.e. the birth can't be scheduled.

So considering the topic for next meet-up, 'birth as a rite of passage', the concepts of loss and mindfulness can be deeply intertwined with rites of passage. The idea of passage itself implies moving through/away from one scenario and into another. However, if we're mindful of how our personal expectations can affects our transition through pregnancy, labour, and beyond, perhaps it's easier to make allowances for things that won't go our way, and not to become fixed to a single ideal of how things are meant to be.

Perhaps also if we think of birth in the context of a rite of passage it's easier to 'own' our bad experiences and understand that they are a part of learning about ourselves. xx

[Kes]

Hello, back again and again sorry I can't make the next meetup as I'll be in work.

Quick point - and I know you were just using a quick example SW but I've seen various media articles that claim women have elective C/S just so they can schedule the timing of the birth. It annoys me. Switching to gains rather than losses, **dependednt on circumstances** the gains for an elective are likely to be be the reasurrance that you are doing the safest possible thing for you and/or your baby, the knowledge that you definately won't be having an emergency c section or any other form of intervention etc. Sadly no one can choose a straightforward vaginal birth so an elective alows some degree of control over complications.

[Saffron]

Kes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hello, back again and again sorry I can't make the

> next meetup as I'll be in work.

>

> Quick point - and I know you were just using a

> quick example SW but I've seen various media

> articles that claim women have elective C/S just

> so they can schedule the timing of the birth. It

> annoys me. Switching to gains rather than losses,

> **dependednt on circumstances** the gains for an

> elective are likely to be be the reasurrance that

> you are doing the safest possible thing for you

> and/or your baby, the knowledge that you

> definately won't be having an emergency c section

> or any other form of intervention etc.

Actually, I'd say those are falsely held beliefs. Scheduling a C-section does not guarantee a safe outcome, or negate any other forms of intervention. There are no absolutes either way.

> Sadly no

> one can choose a straightforward vaginal birth

No, BUT, we can make choices that make that more likely. And we can adjust our expectations to help us cope with a variety of outcomes if a straightforward birth is not possible.

> so

> an elective alows some degree of control over

> complications.

Yes, that's true, and it's why an elective c-sec may be a very positive choice for some people.

I'm not sure I understand your point... you're annoyed that some people use C-sec simply to gain an element of control, because an appropriate C-sec can mitigate risk in some circumstances? You're saying focus the gains, rather than the loss? Did I understand that right?

Just to clarify, I was using 'timing/scheduling' in the previous post in relation to mitigating negative outcomes, not as 'convenience'. Hope that makes sense. xx

[Suzyrocker]

In response to Saffron - I think we are on the same page.

Part of being able to embrace any part of your life and particularly in the case of birth, is recognizing the importance of perception and appreciating that life is not just black and white or good experience/bad experience. Life is about different shades of grey and when we appreciate that, even the more difficult experiences, become something to celebrate.

[Kes]

Hi Saffron,

Sorry I didn't make that very clear and I was only refering to SWs post not anything you said previously.

I'm annoyed when the media portrays elective C/S as something chosen by women for the sole reason of their own convenience and was concerned that SWs post made it sound like that was the only benefit to a C/S.

(I'm sure this wasn't SWs intention but I thought it needed clarifying - I then made it even less clear it seems!)

I wasn't saying "focus on the gains" in the way I think you mean, It was just easier and quicker to say this is a good thing about C/S rather than this is something you loose if you don't have a C/S - if that makes any sense??

I did not say that a C/s garuntees a safe outcome, I said that in ***certain circumstances*** it would be the safest possible option. For example, transverse baby, placenta previa, etc. As you say there are no garuntees either way.

I hope that is clearer now - and sorry for thhe digretion!

[SE22mum]

Suzyrocker, I got to the end of your interesting and thoughtful post!

Your approach sounds very supportive, and I also wish it was available on the NHS. I suppose one of your challenges must be around helping women to think about their expectations and their plans. I know my sister had hypnobirthing and she was convinced it was a "magic wand" - and unfortunately I think the practitioner encouraged this. Then on the day she couldn't remember any of the exercises and freaked out.

[Saffron]

Hi Kes- thanks for clarifying! :-)

[Kes]

So Sorry Saffron and SW - I've got myself all confused! Serves me right for reading this on my phone while I was at work!

I was actually referring to a post by Saffron, for some reason I thought it was SillyWoman (thus proving that I deserve her name more than her!)

Saffron - yes it was the timing/scheduling comment:

"in a straightforward vaginal birth, you lose the element of timing, i.e. the birth can't be scheduled. "

I misunderstood you, to me it read as - with a c-section you can choose the most convenient time to have your baby, - with the implication that that is the only real benefit to a C/S and it is a pretty selfish one. I appreciate now that that isn't what you meant, but as someone who had an elective CS and has seen that sort of claim in the media many times, I'm clearly over-sensitive to it and was concerned that others would read it that way too.

I really hope I've stopped being dim for today now - and sorry again for taking up time on the thread with a tangent!