Racism and homophobia - where we are in 2008

[James]

Read the rest of DPF's post

[muffintop]

James I think you actually have more of a problem with the levels of comparison of levels of abuse being aimed at black people as opposed to abuse being aimed at gay people,and the (in your eyes) acceptability of abuse of one over the other than the actual abuse itself, give it a rest for crying out loud! You are going on a bit.

You have made it more "well abuse at me is worse than abuse at you" kind of thing your statement says it all,

Oh and by the way, pk and Citizen - Muffintop said that she overheard a man saying to his friend "She's pretty for a black girl." I have been followed by a gang of kids shouting "F*cking batty man" in a menacing way at me. Which do you think is more severe?

Its not a competition James, and no, that is not the only bad thing that has ever been said to me, just the morning in question, now put a blooming sock in it, its getting very bbooooooooooorrrrrring now

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Doesn't matter which way you swing, if you go out in public dressed like that people will think you're weird.

James,

I think the key statement in that sentence is it "doesn't matter which way you swing".

[James]

Muffintop, how you can fail to understand my point is beyond me. My point is that while racism is still a problem it is generally more subtle and covert, whereas we are still at the overt stage with homophobia.

This is evidenced by the fact that there is still homophobia within the media (e.g. use of the word "gay" to mean rubbish, tabloids screaming about gays etc) and the unfair court ruling whereby a registrar was allowed to discriminate against gays, plus the lack of reporting of gay attacks and unchallenged homophobia in schools.

When did I say "abuse at me is worse than abuse at you because you're black"? This is not what I said at all. You are being very disingenous twisting my words like this. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? Read my post again.

I think the people who are deliberately, repeatedly twisting my words because they don't want to face what I'm saying are boring, to be honest.

We are further along in the fight against racism, which is something to be proud of (although we must stay vigilant too). But now we must use the lessons learned to tackle homophobia - zero tolerance.

[muffintop]

When did I say "abuse at me is worse than abuse at you because you're black"? This is not what I said at all. You are being very disingenous twisting my words like this. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? Read my post again.

Ok, I immediately deleted the "because you're black" reference as soon as I posted it, it was inflaming and I get a little hot headed at times, conceded and apologies. (check the posted at 10.35 edited at 10.36)

Racial abuse, "subtle", I think not, look at society.

[*Bob*]

You're doing a fair amount of evading yourself, James.

Your original post was specifically about the use of the word 'gay' meaning something a bit rubbish.

Despite me pointing out a few times now that "you" (gay people) use the word in what many people could be forgiven for thinking was exactly the same way - to each other - and to straight people all the time, you've steadfastly and conveniently chosen to ignore this and instead go off on one about a hundred unconnected other things.

[James]

Likewise, sorry if I am being a bit hot-headed. The last thing I would do is belittle victims of racism or brush aside this country's shameful colonial legacy.

As I said before, I have black friends who have told me about the subtle but pervasive discrimination they face, and it's not right.

But I am making a different point about homophobia.

[muffintop]

Noooo, have gone and done the very thing I promised myself I was not going to do, get involved in the various threads involving racially/sexuality based rantings and ravings on this forum!

[James]

The point about the word gay is very simple, Bob.

What other word to describe a minority group is also deemed acceptable to mean "sh*t"?

I happily use the word to describe myself and others and don't mind other people calling me gay - it's what I am after all!

[cdonline]

I wonder if some people are missing James' above point that there are many people who feel it is OK to continue to be homophobic, while expressing racist beliefs has widely become socially unacceptable.

It doesn't seem to be arguing that racism doesn't continue to be pervasive and is affecting many in our society.

I find the argument that people should tone down their image at Pride, as it may add fuel to the bigots' argument, just a little bit offensive. To me that's the wrong way round. As far as I am concerned, Pride is about being open and expressing gayness in all its varied and colourful ways, it is about diversity and a celebration of all expressions of being gay. It is not about showing others that we are normal and just like them. And part of that is our sexual identity. Pride has largely turned into one big party, but I still think it has an important role in bringing together so many in our community.

One last point, there is still little support for young gay people. Many feel forced to stay quiet about their sexuality and unable to talk to their peers, teachers and importantly their parents to talk about something that is perfectly 'normal'. And for that reason alone, it's important that we bang on about it again and again.

[*Bob*]

I'm in the pub with a gay friend.

Me: "I think I'm going shoot off home"

Gay friend: "Come on - have another one. Don't be so gay."

Is the only difference that I like my gay friend but Chris Moyles is a knob?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I find the argument that people should tone down their image at Pride, as it may add fuel to the bigots' argument, just a little bit offensive. To me that's the wrong way round. As far as I am concerned, Pride is about being open and expressing gayness in all its varied and colourful ways, it is about diversity and a celebration of all expressions of being gay. It is not about showing others that we are normal and just like them. And part of that is our sexual identity. Pride has largely turned into one big party, but I still think it has an important role in bringing together so many in our community.

I'm sorry if you were offended but you really don't seem to understand what causes homophobia in the first place.

[cdonline]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

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> I'm sorry if you were offended but you really

> don't seem to understand what causes homophobia in

> the first place.

Thank you for patronising me. I suppose it's not enough to have been on the end of it, obviously the causes of homophobia are beyond me. Cheers.

[capt_birdseye]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the people who are deliberately,

> repeatedly twisting my words because they don't

> want to face what I'm saying are boring, to be

> honest.

James, to be fair, having followed this thread closely you seem to be doing more word-twisting than anyone else. You've (whether deliberately or not) misconstrued a lot of arguments and taken them to be direct attacks. Read them again with a calm, rational head on and you may find you've been overly defensive when in essence pretty much everyone is agreeing with you.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Thank you for patronising me. I suppose it's not enough to have been on the end of it, obviously the causes of homophobia are beyond me. Cheers.

Look, I'm being serious, why do you think most people are homophobic? What can be done to change this?

[*Bob*]

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask everyone to calm down and stop being so gay.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Hater

[cdonline]

Thanks Bob. I might just take the opportunity to flounce off, as this is seemingly going nowhere.

DPF, I may be misunderstanding some of your words, but are you arguing that some gays bring homophobia on themselves?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

DPF, I may be misunderstanding some of your words, but are you arguing that some gays bring homophobia on themselves?

Nope not at all. My initial point was that some of the outlandishness at Pride does little to increase acceptance among those have pre-existing prejudices and don't come into contact with members of the gay community on a regular basis.

[James]

I assume that everyone who's happy to throw the word "gay" around as an insult would do the same with the word "n*gger"?

After all, some black people use that word ironically as a term of address to each other.

[James]

>>My initial point was that some of the outlandishness at Pride does little to increase acceptance among those have pre-existing prejudices and don't come into contact with members of the gay community on a regular basis.

This reminds me of the people who said of the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence "Well you know, he was no angel himself."

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

After all, some black people use that word ironically as a term of address to each other.

Ironic in which way?

[*Bob*]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I assume that everyone who's happy to throw the

> word "gay" around as an insult would do the same

> with the word "n*gger"?

>

> After all, some black people use that word

> ironically as a term of address to each other.

That's a really poor argument.

The percentage of the black population who actually use the word "n*gger" is 'hardly any of them'.

The percentage of the gay population who use the word 'gay' is the way we're talking about is 'most of them, from time to time'.*

*When it suits them.

[muffintop]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd like to take this opportunity to ask everyone

> to calm down and stop being so gay.

That made me crease up! >:D<

Gay was a word which had a meaning along the lines of meaning, happy, happy go lucky, jolly etc. this was then hijacked by us (being gay myself) to describe people who were of homosexual, lesbian or bi-sexual orientation, it was never a derogatory term. The word "nigger" has always been an insulting and derogatory term for a black person. (oh, being of mixed race myself too!)

although even the word "jolly" at some point got hijacked as another word for a condom!

[James]

So what is the percentage of the population who use a word relating to the colour of someone's skin to mean "sh*t" as compared to the percentage of the population who use a word relating to someone's sexuality to mean "sh*t"?