Nursery - increase in staff: child ratio

[Bellenden Belle]

The nursery my son attends has suddenly decided to expand. This is to accommodate 2/3 year olds in return for a local authority capital grant. It happened without consultation with existing parents (despite being a community nursery) and with no information on staff/child ratios.

A number of times I have dropped my son off and been rather perturbed by the staff/ ratio - and the fact there is not even a key worker present to greet him.

Before I start looking for a new setting, I am wondering whether my expectations are too high. and what other settings for two/ three years olds are like. Apparently legislation states 1:13 is acceptable but most nurseries choose 1:8.

I wonder if there is such a thing as a calm environment for a toddler, where they do get individual attention.

[jennyh]

Hi

My daughter has just started a new nursery in forest hill after attending a dulwich nursery for a few years. I was keen to get to the bottom of this as understood that ratios seemed flexible when I thought that they couldn't be. Basically it seems to be dependent on the level/qualifications of the staff, so if you are grade 7 or something like that you can have 13 children in your care, obviously the lower level you are (and the younger the child) the fewer you can look after.

My daughter is 3 and goes to a nursery where there are a maximum of 20 in a pre-school room, there are usually 3 members of staff. However it is usually quieter and when I drop her there are often only a handful of children. I have found that this nursery has a homely feel and the room is smaller than her old one so it has a feeling of closeness about it, the staff are all visible and greet you quickly and the children can be easily seen and reached at all times and tend to mob the staff most of the time. (her previous nursery had a much larger room and I sometimes felt the kids were doing there own thing whilst the staff would be on the other side of the room). When I spoke to the manager she seemed to suggest they don't like crowding them in so even if ofsted state they can have more, they seem to work a little more organically in terms of ratios and numbers of children to best meet the needs and the space available(never more than the max of course.

i think that a nursery offers a very specific type of care and understand your point about individual attention. I think that a pre-school environment differs greatly and when my daughter was 2 I would have wanted something a little less busy and chaotic but its hard to find I think. I think it makes a big difference how you feel about the staff and the environment, in my case even when it is busy I still believe the staff really care and are dedicated to the children in a small environment that has carpets and soft furnishings and is cosy and homely!

FYI the 2 year room at her nursery is equally homely and seems very friendly but obviously I have no experience. Perhaps best to go and look around a few others. I found that when I was searching in Forest Hill I looked at a lot that I didn't like and I realised that the bad bits of her old nursery were small in comparison to the sacrifices of a lot of other ones I looked at. Fortunately I found one I love so that was good but it helped to look further afield to get a point of comparison.

[Saffron]

My daughter is in the pre-school room (2-4 yos) at a Montessori certified nursery, which generally feels busy but also calm. The children are all engaged and busy with learning play, but the pre-school never seems chaotic. The staff ratio is generally 3-4 adults to 20-25 children.

Her keyworker isn't always there to greet her, but this is because we often arrive at the end of the early morning shift. So her keyworker is on a break. It's not an issue for my daughter because she is very close to other teachers. She's happy to be greeted by any of them.

If it's important for your child to be greeted by a keyworker, then perhaps enquire about the morning break schedule?

It think it would be good to make some firm but polite enquiries directly with the nursery about the staff ratio and level of qualifications that staff have. Asking for clarification following the recent changes in your nursery seems like a very reasonable request that the management should be amenable to answering.

[StraferJack]

I would ask what your primary concern is if the nursery is changing?

Before we left our Dulwich Nursery, the ratio had changed enormously. When daughter first started it was a new place and was easy to get into - ratio seemed about 1:4

By the time she left I would say it might have been close to 1:13 on occassion. I could be wrong, but it was night and day in terms of difference

I didn't inherently see that as a bad thing. I knew the nursery was good and would become popular and it did. Had our daughter shown any concern about the changes I might have felt differently but basically the place seemed like one big happy, noisy place when I went to pick her up

Indeed, now that she is a smaller nursery again, with a ratio of about 1:4 she pines a little for the bustle of the old place. I think the old nursery might be same as the one jennyh describes as her old one. Just shows that people look for different things. It was a big room and yes I would sometimes see daughter playing on her own or with some friends but she would spend journey home telling me what they had done at nursery and she was fiercely keen on not just her key worker but all of the staff

It certainly never occurred to us to move her because of the changes.

[Bellenden Belle]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Really interesting and useful points.

My main concern is that I think my son could benefit from more individual attention - particularly as he already has speech delay. And I guess we all choose our nurseries carefully and to then find the goalposts shifting so that the level of care is not the same as one's initial impression is very difficult.

I think I need to make some very firm enquiries as Saffron suggested, and look at other settings.

SJ - 1:4 ratio? Amazing...

[StraferJack]

I'm not saying don't worry at all btw - just a "don't worry if it's a vague notion about busy-ness"

There may be specifics around the nursery itself or whatever - I'm not trying to dismiss concern, just allay any fears

[StraferJack]

oops my second post missed yours

[jennyh]

Sounds similar SJ - I too didn't see the busyness as a negative thing really but I would occasionally think that it would be nice if they were involved in lots of activities together - the end of the day is often a time when they are zoning out, filling in books, tidying up etc. Have you considered a childminder BB? I am sure you have considered all your options over and over again!

I have to say that having looked at a few primary schools for next year's intake I do find the pre-school environment a helpful conditioner for what will be quite a big change. Like all things though we constantly weigh up our decisions regarding out kids trying to find the best option! If your son has some speech delays then I totally understand why you would wish for a smaller ratio and more interaction, and there is a HUGE difference between a 2yo and a 2-4yo so ultimately the nursery needs to by sympathetic to their different needs and if you feel that the current nursery isn't then of course you are right to think of an alternative.

[Bellenden Belle]

I want to say a big thank you to everyone who has replied, pm'd me or approached me.

Talking to the nursery, they have assured me they were five staff down (through holiday and sickness) on the day I was particularly concerned and that this was an exceptional situation. They have also assured the ratio will remain 8:1, even with the increased numbers of children.

I also spoke to Southwark who assured me that such changes would be closely monitored - particularly if a capital grant was being made by the local authority.

But mostly, I guess, talking to other parents and hearing about other nursery environments, I have concluded that at the moment ours is quite a standard nursery and I am unlikely to find much different, or indeed better, elsewhere. I guess I find that knowledge reassuring, and must simply learn to deal with my parental anxiety!!!!