Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[Otta]

This thread is getting silly. You all seem to think that James has a lot more sway than he probably does have.

[first mate]

Otta, I genuinely believe that any other Councillor or local politician that comes onto the forum will be asked to nail their colours to the mast on this issue. James has wriggled around in this one.

[bonaome]

Otta Wrote:

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> This thread is getting silly. You all seem to

> think that James has a lot more sway than he

> probably does have.

I'd like to know what his views are as he seeks to be an elected representative of the local community. I'm sorry if you think that's silly.

[James Barber]

Hi Sanstopit,

This is not what I would desire but Southwark Council and the EFA have so far not found another site.

I have suggested sites to both authorities and neither have followed them up. So we're stuck with two intransigent public bodies who both by their actions will make this happen.

Yes voters with children already in primary schools support a secondary school and don't want more primary school places. Are you surprised. Parents without places in primary schools have said they want primary school places. Are you surprised. They have different interests and the experiences of people with kids in primary schools is mostly that they achieved the places they wanted. So of course they don't see a need.

Hi boanonme,

No you can not assume I would abandon parents who supported two Harris primary schools. But I will continue to fight for another site for such a primary school.

Hi Otta,

Agreed!

[Otta]

first mate Wrote:

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> Otta, I genuinely believe that any other

> Councillor or local politician that comes onto the

> forum will be asked to nail their colours to the

> mast on this issue. James has wriggled around in

> this one.

Fair point, but even if James announces what he really wants, I still think people are assuming that somehow James has the power to make his preferred option happen. It is not in his hands!

And he makes a good point about pople with very young kids. I'd be willing to bet money that everyone getting wound up about the secondary school already has their kids in a primary.

[Otta]

Not that I don't want to see just a secondary on the hospital site personally.

[intexasatthe moment]

"I have suggested sites to both authorities and neither have followed them up. So we're stuck with two intransigent public bodies who both by their actions will make this happen. "

I hope these sites don't include Metropolitan Open Land such as found at the East Dulwich Harris Girls site .

The London Plan says this about MOL

3D.10 Metropolitan Open Land

The Mayor will and boroughs should maintain the protection of Metropolitan Open Land (MOL) from inappropriate development......Essential facilities for appropriate uses will only be acceptable where they do not have an adverse impact on the openness of MOL.

which does rather give the thumbs down to putting buildings on it .

Wikipedia explains "planning permission to carry it out cannot be granted by a London Borough acting alone, but requires the concurrence of the Mayor of London and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government."

which rather gives the lie to the idea that it's not just naughty old Southwark being intransigent .

But maybe James has moved on from suggesting Harris Girls and has found alternative sites ?

[samstopit]

Otta, if there are people with young kids who want to see a Harris primary on the hospital site, they are being very quiet indeed. There has been a lot of noise about this issue and not one person besides James has said that they think it's an acceptable idea for this school to coexist with the proposed secondary on the hospital site. Possibly there are some families in Nunhead who would welcome a Harris Nunhead Primary if it was in Nunhead, but not on the hospital site.

The people I know who are supporting the secondary school campaign are very aware of the whole picture, it's pretty offensive to all the work we've done to suggest that we are only thinking about our own situations.

[bonaome]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Yes voters with children already in primary

> schools support a secondary school and don't want

> more primary school places. Are you surprised.

> Parents without places in primary schools have

> said they want primary school places. Are you

> surprised. They have different interests and the

> experiences of people with kids in primary schools

> is mostly that they achieved the places they

> wanted. So of course they don't see a need.

James, the need for primary places was in Nunhead, wasn't it? Where's the evidence the anyone supported two Harris primaries? Or two primaries of any brand? What was it they were asked to sign up to? Doesn't the council data now show there will be enough primary places to meet demand - Ivydale expanding, Harris primary on the police station site - and that we do not need another primary school in the area?

To declare my interest, I have a daughter in year 4. So I've realised that the new secondary will not open in time for us whatever size it is. But the wishes of the local community seem to be that they want a decent sized secondary, not a primary on that site. I'd have thought you'd see it as your job to represent those views. I'm very much reminded of this http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,772215,page=46

[Otta]

samstopit Wrote:

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> The people I know who are supporting the

> secondary school campaign are very aware of the

> whole picture, it's pretty offensive to all the

> work we've done to suggest that we are only

> thinking about our own situations.

You offend pretty easily. I'm sure it's all 100% altruistic.

[samstopit]

Bonaome the intention is for the new secondary to open in 2016 in temporary buildings and to move to the hospital site in 2018. Haberdashers are working to these dates. I would hope that Charter would do the same if they are approved by DFE. If your child is in Y4 you should be ok.

[simonethebeaver]

Otta, my kids are pre-primary, in fact we live in the 'black hole' of provision, and I've been on the steering group because I had some applicable knowledge and it seemed like a useful thing to do for the community. In fact, if we're still living here when the time comes, my kids won't even get into the new secondary school. So my work, including hours and hours of leafleting and meetings, has not been to serve my own interest. I can't speak for other steering group members but I thought I should mention you owe someone some money.

The issue around the second Harris primary is that there simply is no need for the primary places now, particularly in that area - we've seen no proposals on how the catchment for this school would work. All projections show that South Southwark now has enough places, something that can be seen by the fact that for the first time in several years, it appears that no primary school in East Dulwich or Nunhead is facing a temporary bulge. In fact, even where I live, we are now fairly sure of a place for next autumn.

[Otta]

And all power to you. I was making a bit of a generalisation rather than being literal. For the most part people will think first and foremost about the situation that they are in, because it is the context of their lives. That was the point really. You are clearly a kind and selfless exception.

And again, I think the idea of having two schools on that site is absolutely fecking ludicrous whatever way you try to paint it.

[simonethebeaver]

I AM an excessively nice person, Otta!

[first mate]

I may be wrong but I suspect there are a quite a few objectors with no vested interest at all.

There is a sense that a Harris Primary is being imposed on the community whether we like it or not. So what is the motivation for this imposition, if it is not being driven by local need? It feels wrong and it feels undemocratic.

It is also upsetting to find that a locally elected representative for the community appears unwilling, and for reasons that are not clear, to represent the wishes of the community.

[Otta]

I suspect James has quiet moments of reflection where he wishes he'd never gotten involved in trying to get any school on this site.

James, will you feed back to the appropriate bodies that there is a strong local feeling that there should only be a secondary school on this site, and in fact, many people feel that what with Harris East Dulwich already opening, there is no need for a new primary?

[TE44]

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/publications/category/item/primary-focus

The recommendations from policy exchange (link above) suggesting all primaries should be academies by 2020, shows primaries are a priority. As there are no council run secondaries in Southwark, and any new ones almost guaranteed to be academies,therefo the interest is more focused on primaries. It did not take that long to bring in the change for secondaries nor to have many people elected by us who said thhey disagreed but then accepted nothing could be done.

edit to add in Southwark

[James Barber]

Hi Otta,

I have fed that back.

Until March I had a number of meeting with Southwark Council where they said no secondary school was needed in south Southwark. They changed their minds under political pressure when we have over 500 families saying they wanted a new secondary school. THEN officers changed their reports to reflect the political decision to support the campaign.

So I'm not convinced about pupil projections given by the same people about primary schools. They have produced the stats to follow the political lead they've been given.

[Otta]

And we wonder why people don't trust politicians (I'm not talking about you James).

[ed_pete]

Otta - with the greatest of respect, given that you don't live in East Dulwich is this really your concern ?

[Otta]

Is it the concern of someone on the steering group who says her kids live outside of the catchment?

The answer to that is yes by the way.

And how do you know where I'll live when my kids are secondary age? I am interested in this for various reasons, so if I chose to comment on a public forum about it then surely that's my right. No?

[ed_pete]

Of course it's your right and I'm not trying to censure anyone. When this forum was first set up I suspect the make up of it's participants was largely local to East Dulwich but we all know that the its reach is far further now. When it comes to decisions about East Dulwich then I would prefer that only those directly affected took part. I would also prefer the a local councillor to spend his time responding to people from his ward rather than those who he doesn't represent.

[simonethebeaver]

To be fair, James' ward doesn't cover the whole of East Dulwich. Plenty of people who will be directly affected by this aren't his constituents. Even though my kids wouldn't get into this new school, they could well still be affected by the shifting admissions of other schools.

[ed_pete]

Including people from Penge ?

[simonethebeaver]

You said you wanted James to respond to his constituents. I was pointing out that this affects lots of people who aren't James' constituents. As Otta says, who knows where he'll be living in five years time? I've lived in ED for 15 years and James has never been my councillor!