What Labour really thinks of the white working class

[Otta]

Hadn't read Pokertime's last post when I posted that.

[Louisa]

PT in defence of quids I think anyone who is a paid up member of parliament who posts public messages like those, particularly at a time when the working class vote is feeling alienated from its traditional party of choice, is deeply misguided. She didn't need to say anything, the picture said it all. It represents the urban champagne socialist view of the working classes to a tee. Milliband is trying to woo his core vote back and someone in his shadow cabinet does this? This is exactly why after 5 nearly five years of an unpopular Conservative lead coalition Labour are nowhere in the national polls and in Scotland face being almost wiped out. The guardian reading middle class urban socialist is as far removed from traditional Labour voters as the toff Tories.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

Was a monunmentally stupid thing to do.

But if I walked past a house draped in England flags (outside of a major international sporting event), I know what I'd think...

[JohnL]

I still wouldn't want to live next to someone who permanently has a countries flags adorning the outside of the house. I'd get rather fed up of it fast. Okay with it during Englands world cup exploits (they don't last long ;) and Okay with a flag inside the window (as curtains for instance).

I would be told to take it down if I tried that - but then I'd be told to keep my washing off balcony - it's written in the terms of most blocks of flats (and I'd have thought blocks of houses).

Until recently English flags on a house were associated with extremism in many peoples minds NOT as patriotic - I'm glad thats changed to be honest - maybe she didn't know there has been a change.

[*Bob*]

C'mon people - the fact is we don't know anything about the person that lives at this address. They could be a beautiful human being for all we know; the toast of the street.

Like that bloke in the park with the pitbull, blue ink tats and thousand yard stare.

Appearances can be so deceptive. We just don't know.

[Otta]

Louisa, you're spot on, it was incredibly stupid for an MP in 2014 to be doing something like that, and it's a real self inflicted wound for Labour without a shadow of a doubt.

[????]

Oh I see PT it is infact still a Working Class party but just not THAT sort of working class person, it's all become crystal clear so thanks.....

[PokerTime]

I agree with Louisa too. It's about impression and that's where the harm is done.

[PokerTime]

????...ah so you think all working class people are white, drive vans, are die hard footy supporters, drape flags outside their windows and vote UKIP? it's all become crystal clear so thanks.....

[JohnL]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> C'mon people - the fact is we don't know anything

> about the person that lives at this address. They

> could be a beautiful human being for all we know;

> the toast of the street.

>

> Like that bloke in the park with the pitbull, blue

> ink tats and thousand yard stare.

>

> Appearances can be so deceptive. We just don't

> know.

He's quoted today as saying

"I will continue to fly the flags. I know there is a lot of ethnic minorities that don't like it. They have been up since the World Cup."

[Otta]

My former next door neighbour on a quiet Sydenham street had a big England flag outside his house for the whole 5 years I lived there. He was a lovely old fella who cut his lawn with scissors. He probably had some views common for his generation, but certainly wasn't a hateful man, and never said anything to me that made my think he was bigotted.

In the summer my next door neighbour on my estate in Penge strung England Flags outside his flat. He's just not very bright (he told me the only thing that could stop England winning the World Cup was the heat).

I don't think either of these men are nasty racist types, but equally I could imagine both of them ticking the UKIP Box.

Then I walk around an estate in Eltham where every other house has a flag, and I feel quite confident in saying that a lot of them are nasty racist types, because on several occasions I've been sat in these houses listening to them quite shamelessly telling me all about it.

[Otta]

JohnL Wrote:

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> He's quoted today as saying

>

> "I will continue to fly the flags. I know there is

> a lot of ethnic minorities that don't like it.

> They have been up since the World Cup."

He also said he can't remember the last time he voted, so no harm done.

[BrandNewGuy]

When our lads were smaller, they hung England flags in our windows during the World Cup and the Euros. And we live in East Dulwich, are highly educated and are utterly middle class. Should we vote Islington Labour or UKIP? I'm confused.

[PokerTime]

That's kind of the problem isn't it. The harmless hanging of a flag for say national pride at a football tournament (which I have done too) has become mixed with the doing the same out of nationalistic racist fervour. We can't know either way for seeing a flag alone.

[DulwichFox]

circa 1978 ish I asked a member of 'The Young Conservatives' if he considered himself Working Class ?

He replied. "No. I'm not Working Class. I'm unemployed"

Says it all really.

Foxy

[Jeremy]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> When our lads were smaller, they hung England

> flags in our windows during the World Cup and the Euros

It's not really the same thing, is it?

[BrandNewGuy]

Of course not, but only a few years earlier it would have been an unequivocal sign of one's political 'allegiance'. I'm glad that over the last ten to fifteen years its power as a political symbol has diminished.

[Otta]

I'm quite patriotic, but I wouldn't dream of hanging an England flag out because it carries too much stigma.

And that's the point. She didn't need to say anything with that photo, because deep down we all have our predjudices, and we all knew what she was saying.

[adonirum]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When our lads were smaller, they hung England

> flags in our windows during the World Cup and the

> Euros. And we live in East Dulwich, are highly

> educated and are utterly middle class. Should we

> vote Islington Labour or UKIP? I'm confused.

BNG, on what, precisely,do you consider yourselves middle-class?

Residency in E.D.?

Highly educated?

I do not ask in a contradictory manner, I am genuinely interested as I posed the question previously in another thread some while ago.

[red devil]

Otta Wrote:

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> I'm quite patriotic, but I wouldn't dream of

> hanging an England flag out because it carries too

> much stigma.

In the 70's the NF hijacked the Union Jack, now it seems groups like the EDL have done the same with the English flag. In America there's no such stigma...

[????]

Anyway, similar thing happening in Oz,,,,lovely quote :)

"When I joined the Labor Party, it contained the cream of the working class. But as I look about me now all I see are the dregs of the middle class. And what I want to know is when you middle class perverts are going to stop using the Labor Party as a spiritual spitoon."

Kim Beazley

[Louisa]

In the states there is no such stigma attached to a national flag. A lot of this stuff harks back to the British class system, connotations with extremism and just general British cynicism at pretty much anything. It seems a shame, and that's why so many people feel the way they do. However, this does not justify a politician sneering at the very people who elect them and pay their salary.

Louisa.

[PokerTime]

The Labour Party though has always had middle classes amongst it's ranks and dare I say higher than that too. Tony Benn didn't exactly slum it at any point in his life. It's not class that matters but what you stand for. The Labour party has shifted away from the socialism of Atlee, and we can talk about why, but it's the culture that defines a party, not class per se.

Similalrly the Tory Party of old also had 'working class' supporters and MPs that represented their interests.

All parties have changed, because they've all become dominated by career politicians with economics and law degrees. And they've all jumped on the free market economy bandwagon too (for better and for worse). It's no accident that the average age of a prime minister/ cabinet minister has fallen hand in hand with a disconnect from ordinary people either. There are very few intellectuals in Parliament now.

And the demography of the nation has changed dramatically. The strongest voting block is no longer the 'workers'. It's the over 50's. All these things translate to a shaping of policy to win those votes.

Of course the other thing is that the modern political machine means that if you join any of the main parties, the odds of gaining candidate selection are stacked against you, without the right background. So it's not just a disconnect for ordinary working people, the low waged and unemployed from politics, it's also a diconnect from the machine that would enable change.

This is precisely why people like Nigel Farage are making an impact. They are filling that void and to be honest, soaking up votes on that rebellious energy alone. Vey few people actually know what UKIP stands for outside of a few core issues, but they somehow think a former city trader, with as privileged an upbringing as it gets, speaks for them. Smoke and mirrors.

[uncleglen]

(On a par with Brown's 'bigoted woman' comment methinks) My brother is a very qualified and experienced white van man, West Ham supporter and in the last 10 years has struggled to find work because he cannot afford to work for ?20 a day (he has a mortgage and 2 children).... I am sure he will vote UKIP

[miga]

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