How to teach Muslims about dealing with offense

[Otta]

ernesto Wrote:

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> lots of intellectual superiority vibe going on

> here

>

> this is how it all started....

StraferJack Wrote:

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> how all "what" started exactly?

I haven't the foggiest about "what" started, but I do pretty much agree with Che's first line.

[miga]

.

[????]

Whilst the Golde Age stuff is all very true MP, it was a long time ago Islam (or maybe Islamic states) could have done with having their own versions "Rennaissance/Enligtenment/Scientific revolution" etc rather thn a golden period some 1000+ years ago

[El Pibe]

I wasn't intentionally lecturing you miga, just musing to myself really on the topics you brought up.

IS ceratinly is a kind of logical terminus of the those strands.

Hopefully it'll crash and burn horribly, pushing arab reaction to a sort of middle ground.

Though IS is also intrinsically the child of the iraqi invasion and the woeful behaviour of US forces/PA there in terms of trigger happiness, detenition without trial and abuse therein, Fallujah and some incredibly stupid strategic decisions politically, along with the powerful Shia arc that has been the ultimate fall out.

Chuck in a hideous civil war and a call to arms for every jihadi fool in the world, and well, we have ISIS, and the al-nusrah front, and fatah al-islam, and ansar-al islam and etc etc.

I think mainstream arab opinion would have liked a nice peaceful transition to democracies and had everyone butt out of the governments they chose, even if, as in Egypt, they were turning into their previous oppressors with some gusto.

It really hasn't worked out that way and Syria was possibly the worst handled of the lot, or Libya, erm or Egypt.

I guess until the oil runs out the area is probably fucked, and days like last week are the inevitable fall out, just as the odd massacre is the price people pay for staving off gun control in the US, or the odd missile is the inevitable price israel is prepared to pay for occupation of the west bank.

[El Pibe]

That's rather the point though isn't it. Their decline is pretty much a result of our enlightenment.

The response was *indeed* to have their own modernist revolution from the 20s to, well it sort of started dying in 1979 thanks to the soviet invasion and the toppling of the shah, and these experiments are deemed by a broad consensus to have failed miserably.

Though the bastins of those experiments still live, snd are having to survive through a combination of increased welfare and increased brutality.

[El Pibe]

I'm not say8ng it's the right reaction. The arab spring was sort of a last hurrah at it, though heavily influenced by a compromise, ie non secular modermism.

Sadly our lovely regimes we installed have all been too ruthless (apart from libya, the fool)

[El Pibe]

I've menioned it before, but this is a good overview.

http://www.theglobalist.com/an-islamic-view-of-history/

chap isn't a historian but he is balanced and gets the broad narrative very well.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> chap isn't a historian *looks skyward and thanks higher being* but he is balanced and gets

> the broad narrative very well.

[El Pibe]

Oi :-P

[Jeremy]

ernesto Wrote:

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> lots of intellectual superiority vibe going on here

By you, maybe!

[miga]

.

[Alan Medic]

In so far as I've been able to read it, this woman provides a lot of interesting views and links.

[ernesto]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> ernesto Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > lots of intellectual superiority vibe going on

> here

>

> By you, maybe!

nah, I mean generally, regarding the patronising western starting point we use as a yardstick for culture/ belief and ting

[El Pibe]

cool story bro?

[david_carnell]

There's an anecdote that I've always enjoyed when doing culture comparisons. I think I heard it via Starkey or Schama or similar.

During the crusades, Richard is ill and bed-ridden. Saladin, in an act of compassion sends him a bowl of fruit and well wishes.

By way of thanks, in return, Richard sends Saladin a slave.

Nice.

[Alan Medic]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/13/lse-student-daniel-wickhams-epic-twitter-takedown_n_6461208.html?1421144526

Good lad.

[Otta]

Okay so this is a serious question.

If it's offensive to depict the prophet Mohammed because (as I understand it) he is perfection basically. Is it not more insulting to give your child his name?

To me that doesn't make sense, but I don't claim to be an expert.

[alice]

I have always thought its do to with not ending up worshiping the image, a bit like the christian 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image'

[Alan Medic]

Imagine Otta became a very popular name to call children in East Dulwich.Several generations on and the next Special One is born and he is named Otta. Otta was a baby first before going on to give sermons in Goose Green once he had become enlightened. At this stage there were many people called Otta.Some may have been crooks or bakers or even bankers.However there was only one enlightened one and what was important was not his name but what he said.

So to answer your question some Mohammed's might have been named after Uncle Mo who made it big running a bar in America and not necessarily a Profit.....or even a Loss.

[Otta]

Yeah I get that, but if you trace it back, I'm sure uncle Mo or whoever he was named after will have been named after the prophet.

Does this mean if people put images of me on facebook I should be offended and kill them?

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

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> jj2 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > People have the right to offend. And to be

> > offended.

> > By the way Charlie Hebdo cover of today is a

> great

> > exapmle of courage and resiliance, without

> being

> > blatantly provocative in my opinion.

>

>

> It's not at all "blatantly provocative", to most

> of us it's just a silly cartoon of a Muslim man.

> If IS find it offensive I couldn?t care less, they

> need to be offended.

>

> My worry about the whole thing is that there are

> lots of young men both in France, here and other

> countries, who feel pretty disaffected already.

> This, at a volatile time, could be just enough to

> tip them over the edge and make them do something

> silly like going off to join IS, or doing

> something silly themselves.

>

> That is why I don't think it should be published,

> not because I find it offensive, but because the

> timing sucks.

>

> There are a million other covers they could have

> used this week which could have shown defiance

> without using that image.

Well put Otta

[Alan Medic]

Otta Wrote:

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> Yeah I get that, but if you trace it back, I'm

> sure uncle Mo or whoever he was named after will

> have been named after the prophet.

>

> Does this mean if people put images of me on

> facebook I should be offended and kill them?

Well Jesus is a popular name in Spain and Manchester and he apparently also plays for PSG.....so I'm sure who should be offended?

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/verratti-zlatan-claimed-he-was-jesus-inspire-psg