Proposed changes to admissions at Harris Girls - Making it harder for local girls to get a place.

[Kes]

Unfortunately the new Charter school probably won't help girls in Nunhead at all, especially if they stick with straight line from the gate admissions and Harris make their nodal point nearer to ED. There is going to be a whole bunch of girls too far from Habs, Charter, Sydenham and excluded from Harris by distance and/or banding too. I don't even know what other options there are once all those are ruled out? Especially if you don't want a religious school.

We have a good few years to go yet but it's worrying, I don't want my daughters to have long treks to the school no one else wanted, with all their friends living miles away.

[INMCD]

You're right of course that Southwark shouldn't have to inform us about Lewisham schools. The talk we had at school was supposed to cover all concerns about secondary transfer. What I was trying to say is that the school didn't warn us that although most people in that room would be applying to Lewisham schools, lots of our children would have no hope of getting in. We just weren't given any real guidance & that's where the frustration lies x

[tomskip]

Is there anywhere I can read online about the Lewisham schools change to admissions policy? My son did not get a place at Forest Hill Boys, although he did sit the banding test and his "rejection" letter gave details of number of applicants and number of places in each band. How does switching to distance only prejudice people in East Dulwich for Sydenham and FHB? I just assumed we live too far away now.

[juliap]

You can read about the change here:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/Sport.cfm?id=30828&headline=Five%20schools%20to%20drop%20%27ability%20banding%27%20entry

Sorry I don't know how to make it a hyperlink but it will work if you c&p into your address bar.

[tomskip]

Thanks juliap. Have read it now and see that it applies from 2016 onwards. I can't quite see how distance only, vs distance + banding disadvantages East Dulwich children but that's just something lacking in my brain and can't be helped!

[LondonMix]

It would only help or disadvantage if a disproportionate amount of pupils of a particular ability live near the school. If that is the case, than the bands would push the catchment out further than distance alone.

However, I don't have any reason to believe that's the case, so it very well could be entirely neutral!

[juliap]

I thought that's what does happen with banding, LondonMix, although not an expert so happy to be told otherwise. I am going to contact Lewisham council admissions team to find out their view. Will report back.

[LondonMix]

It depends on a lot of factors. Good schools in affluent areas sometimes have a disproportionately large number of high achievers living near the school. A poor performing school might have the opposite. Banding will expand these schools intakes beyond their immediate neighbourhoods to fill each ability band.

However, if your child is a high performer, going to distance only admission might increase their chance of getting in like for like (as before your child?s distance would have been judged in a band against the concentration of high performers right next to the school who might have applied for instance).

So even if the total catchment shrinks students in certain ability bands further away from the school might have a better chance of getting a place once it switches to distance alone.

It also depends if the banding was based on national achievement standards or proportioned based on those who applied (confusing called fair banding).

Also, the area near the school might already have a good mix of abilities in which case it will make no difference at all. It really depends on the actual situation.

[landsberger]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It depends on a lot of factors. Good schools in

> affluent areas sometimes have a disproportionately

> large number of high achievers living near the

> school. A poor performing school might have the

> opposite. Banding will expand these schools

> intakes beyond their immediate neighbourhoods to

> fill each ability band.

Which usually means that, miraculously, when a school is in a "high performing" (read middle class) area they tend to be terribly keen on distance based criteria. And when a school borders an edgy area, strangely enough, they start coming up with ballots, banding, and lotteries. I wonder why that is ?

> However, if your child is a high performer, going

> to distance only admission might increase their

> chance of getting in like for like (as before your

> child?s distance would have been judged in a band

> against the concentration of high performers right

> next to the school who might have applied for

> instance).

Many schools are only interested in high performing kids.

> So even if the total catchment shrinks students in

> certain ability bands further away from the school

> might have a better chance of getting a place once

> it switches to distance alone.

>

> It also depends if the banding was based on

> national achievement standards or proportioned

> based on those who applied (confusing called fair

> banding).

>

> Also, the area near the school might already have

> a good mix of abilities in which case it will make

> no difference at all. It really depends on the

> actual situation.

It does, but it doesn't diminish the fact that high achieving kids have bags of choice....

[LondonMix]

What bags of choice do children in a higher band have? Being in a higher band doesn't mean you are rich and it doesn't mean you could get into grammar school. Its just what it is.

While I firmly believe that some schools manipulate their intake your assertion isn't entirely correct.

Charter borders what you might call edgy areas and is distance based (though they don't implement it correctly in their current school). East Dulwich Boys is in an affluent catchment and uses banding. The new Charter is proposing distance and will pull from Camberwell, Peckham and Dulwich as a result. Walworth Academy is in an 'edgy' area and they are distance based. Lewisham implemented banding in all its secondaries and now has switched all of them to distance.

Trying to ensure a comprehensive intake has its merits. I don't believe its always a tactic. There are arguments for different approaches.

[tomskip]

"It does, but it doesn't diminish the fact that high achieving kids have bags of choice...."

What bags of choice would that be? No one has bags of choice in this area, which is what makes the 6 choices on the application form such a pointless waste of time.

I can't speak for other schools but band 1A was the most oversubscribed band by miles at Forest Hill Boys this year.

[LondonMix]

That?s what makes banding so tricky.

The idea is to make sure that all schools have a comprehensive intake. Banding prevents parents with high attaining children taking all of the places within a popular successful school simply by living close to it. By ensuring the most popular schools will ideally only take its fair share of high attainers, it forces high attainers into less academically popular schools. The benefit is that the intake of these less popular schools becomes more comprehensive over time, equalizing the perception of all local schools.

It?s a nice idea that aims to prevent the academic ghettoization of schools. The way Lewisham has traditionally worked it is the best ways?forcing all schools to participate. I?d be interested to learn why they are making the switch.

In Southwark it works terribly because some schools are banded and others are not which means you get situations like this regarding the intake based on primary school results:

The Charter in SE24 (Distance)

? 14% low attainers

? 43% middle attainers

? 43% high attainers

? 31% disadvantaged pupils

Harris Academy Peckham (Bands)

? 29% low attainers

? 64% middle attainers

? 7% high attainers

? 64% disadvantaged pupils

[LondonMix]

I want to clarify that I don?t think that Harris Peckham is a bad school!

Despite all the hand-ringing on the Charter thread about not having any co-ed non-faith schools locally, Harris Peckham is co-ed and non-faith and is in Peckham Rye about a 1 mile as the crow flies from the Dulwich Hospital site. It is also one of the few undersubscribed schools in Southwark (meaning anyone could have gotten a place there as they didn?t fill all their places with first round offers).

It?s a school with a lot of disadvantaged pupils and while it could be better (particularly in the teaching of English to High attainers) its hardly a sinkhole.

Its academic results aren?t wildly different from the Charter?s and it significantly outperforms the Charter in math for all abilities and gets better results in math and English for its middle attainers and low attainers than the Charter school. Charter does better in English for high attainers, but overall both schools have a similar value add score.

Harris Peckham: Receiving A-C in English and Math

? High Attainers: 86%

? Mid Attainers: 82%

? Low Attainers: 11%

The Charter: Receiving A-C in English and Math

? High Attainers: 94%

? Mid Attainers: 59%

? Low Attainers: 5%

Harris Peckham: Expected Progress in Math

? High Attainers: 100%

? Mid Attainers: 84%

? Low Attainers: 64%

The Charter: Expected Progress in Math

? High Attainers: 79%

? Mid Attainers: 64%

? Low Attainers: 50%

Harris Peckham: Expected Progress in English

? High Attainers: 57%

? Mid Attainers: 92%

? Low Attainers: 89%

The Charter: Expected Progress in English

? High Attainers: 96%

? Mid Attainers: 81%

? Low Attainers: 68%