How do you define British culture?

[Brendan]

That's a good point. What is with the trousers?

[Ted Max]

Strides = imposed symbols of a cultural-normative political elite. I refuse to wear them. I'm not wearing any right now.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Well I know Donald preferred Troosers to skirts anyday.

Shame he always misplaced them..

[Huguenot]

Well Luton's mainly Urdu if you've been there? Yet they're still British and so contribute by default to whatever we want to identify as modern British Culture.

To talk of Scottish culture in the way you do, you have to generate a false image of a Scottish race. That simply isn't Scotland without rejecting in a reprehensible fashion the European immigrant populations of both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

If Edinburgh is English by design, and architecture contributes to cultural texture, then Scottish culture is English. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, whether it was elected or imposed, it just is.

If you try and define Scottish culture as the attitudes and approaches of only the genetically pure then you're back on the biscuit tin again. It isn't Scotland, and it isn't Scottish culture.

[Brendan]

Never mind. I?ve been on wikipedia and consequently I am now an expert.

Trousers have to do with horses. Horses are easier to ride in trousers. Although I can?t really see why.

Ironically: The word itself is of Gaelic or Scots Gaelic origin, from the Middle Irish word "triubhas" (close-fitting shorts).

[Ted Max]

I think you are arguing against some things I haven't proposed. Nor do I think the positions you assign to me are a logical progression of my arguements.

To talk of Scottish culture in the way you do, you have to generate a false image of a Scottish race

No you don't. Who mentioned a Scottish race?

If you try and define Scottish culture as the attitudes and approaches of only the genetically pure then you're back on the biscuit tin again.

Who does that?

If Edinburgh is English by design, and architecture contributes to cultural texture, then Scottish culture is English. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, whether it was elected or imposed, it just is.

Yes, a specific and small part of Edinburgh was designed-in as English (actually European, but let's say English). Aspects of Scottish culture are of course influenced by English culture. I wouldn't seek to deny that and don't have any kind of a problem with it. It doesn't make it "English" though. I can't believe you don't have the imagination to see that.

Let's give

a word, here.

[Huguenot]

"That is all true (apart from the Irish import thing, although I accept your qualification). But if you see Scotland as a nation state arising from a Pict/ Gael/ Lallans mish-mash, the military and economic victories came from those in the Lowland power base. Hence Old Scots wins. It doesn't make Scots more "British" though. Britain as a concept didn't exist at the time."

This was the basis of my response, modern Scotland is not a "nation state arising from a Pict/ Gael/ Lallans mish-mash". Culturally this has been subsumed by amongst others Hollywood, immigration and intellectual diversity.

The point is that modern Scotland is specifically British, because being British is defined by being within Britain: a union whose global dominance was driven as much by the Scottish as the English. Hence you could describe once aspect of 'British' culture is that we are uncomfotable neighbours when the economics don't look good.

[Ted Max]

I have no problems with Scotland being labelled as British. It de facto is, just as you have described, within Britain. But to deny a Scottish culture as distinct from that wider British identity seems perverse.

My point about language above, by the way, was in response to Brendan's wondering why Scots became the dominant language in the country - not an attempt to define modern Scotland.

And we are more likely to cling to each other when the economics don't look so good. It's what brought us together, after all.

[Huguenot]

I've been sniffing around this Scots language thing, rumour has it that it's as distinct as Geordie? ;-)

[Brendan]

So? Geordies see themselves as English whereas Scots see themselves as Scots. They may both ultimately see themselves as British but that is neither here nor there.

[Huguenot]

Just musing on cultural distinctions... TM felt that language was significant in national demarcation, so I was exploring.

*all innocent, me*

[Huguenot]

I mean, how about this definition of British culture:

"An aggregation of the beliefs and customs of fiercely independent tribes, whose convictions are based upon none of racial background, architecture, art or language, but instead draw from historical prejudices based on a loose grasp of national agendas.

"The British have a tradition of consortia when faced with economic opportunity, and apathy when comforted by financial security. The British are acquisitve and non-discerning when it comes to language, but liable to fragmentation and self-criticism when they lack a clear objective. They're suckers for glib politicians.

"Artisitically they are populist and anti-intellectual, whilst scientifically they are world leaders as a consequence of their craving for rationalism.

"Musically the fractures within their society contribute to their role as a hotbed of creativity, which has delivered a cultural reputation that exceeds their colonial history.

"This, coupled with their disregard for economic advancement has produced an astounding track record for invention and patent coupled with a corresponding lack of world beating companies".

[Brendan]

Well that defines Britain but not really its culture.

[Huguenot]

Culture as a pervasive stylistic and intellectual influence?

[Brendan]

Influence but not origin. It has its origin in a shared sense of identify. This identity doesn?t necessarily have to be unique, just common amongst a large enough group.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Whatever passes for popular culture in the US is what passes for British Culture as we seem to adopt any old crap they have with gay abandon.

[Huguenot]

Is not the original influence apparent...

Secular but ambitious?

Idealistic but reductionist?

Independent but cohesive?

Creative but dismissive?

Blair rocked the boat becuase he tempted the British people with rousing dynamic concepts that celebrated the positives without the traditional Brit balance. The Brits felt that they had been teased by their desires but hadn't tempered it with their clunky traditional anchors.

We'd tossed out dismissive, cohesive, reductionism to the wind of greater glory. We got our c*ck out in the pub and thought the world was laughing with us, not at our expense.

This is British culture, gained at the expense of our colonies.

The rest is just ephemeral waft.

[Ted Max]

You have a wonderful, grandiose style Hugu. Like a well-coached Oxbridge entrance exam, mixed with a dose of eyeballs-to-the-sky preacherman.

I don't know what it all means, but it stirs me somewhere. (no, not there)

[Huguenot]

Ah, TM, maybe you're right.

Perhaps British culture is not defined by its product, but by its process, its method.

It's shared across the border - not the music, the architecture or the language (the consequence) - but the facetious belief that we will pursue rational solutions and be trustworthy.

Was this the great loss to Hollywood? Surrounded by cellulose idiots we lost our faith in our neighbours?

British culture is daunting, not Scottish, Welsh or English, but our approach to enormous political and social travesties (Prima Notte anyone?) and our desire to solve them amicably for the long term.

[Ted Max]

Nope, not a clue. I fear the fever runs rabid, captain. Bring me my leeches and my hot cups.

[Huguenot]

Oh Fizz.

That'll be the reductionism I referred to.

It makes you a king amongst men TM, a King.

[Ted Max]

Why do I feel like someone's given me a tenner and then taken a twenty out my back pocket at the same time?

I suppose all products can only be the result of process and method. Not sure there is a dislocation between the two. But I think your line about a belief in fair play and rationalism rings true - and where that takes us.

Was Prima Notte solved amicably, then? And have you just watched Braveheart again recently?

[Huguenot]

There, you see.

Like a cultural whale you're hooting your love across five hundred miles. Or 8,500.

Neverthless, your twenty quid is an investment, you should consider it as such.

Do you have any oil?

[Ted Max]

I should have said, we believe that we believe in fair play and rationalism.

No oil, no. Plenty of culture, though.

Hoot hoot.

[Huguenot]

Bah!

Disenfranchised and disempowered, anyone else fancy a rumble?

Brendan, can we embroil ourslevs in a debate about eucalyptus leaves and lemon juice?