Is there a God?

[expat]

Didn't Professor Hawkins say that a god was not necessary which is not the same as saying there is no god IMHO.

Also did The Archbishop of Canterbury not say that "Professor Hawking's latest theories should be welcomed by believers in God"

[HAL9000]

In case any armchair physicists are tempted to stray from the path of scientific righteousness ...

The Cosmological Theory known as the Big Bang holds that Space, Time and Energy/Matter came into being simultaneously - at the Big Bang.

Thus, the Universe cannot be the result of quantum fluctuations (which need Space and Time in which to occur).

Furthermore, the Zero Net Energy theory is only valid within an Oscillating Universe (a long-time favourite of Prof. Hawking) but contemporary observations are against such an outcome. As far as science can tell, the Universe is not closed. It is not only open but its rate of expansion appears to be accelerating ? both observations argue against Hawking?s math.

Also, acceptance of Prof. Hawking's view requires belief in Inflation - a mysterious, omnipotent and omnipresent force that acted as the Prime Mover immediately after the Big Bang and whose energy is now being touted as the gravitational potential underlying Hawking's premise - we might as well call it the 'Hand of God' for all that science knows about it.

And, finally, Prof. Hawking is promoting another cosmology book written for the masses ? I can?t think of a better way to boost sales than to hype therein some revelation about God. His publishing success is founded upon that formula.

[silverfox]

I think missus has hit the nail on the head - none of us know for sure and in the end it comes down to belief, gut instinct and upbringing. AND THIS IS TRUE FOR SCIENTISTS (note caps here).

jctg - I'm not claiming more knowledge and understanding of theoretical physics than Prof Hawking. My understanding is science for the proles a la wikipedia with a measure of commonsense thrown in.

Huguenot, good try (welcome back by the way) but again you've missed the point but nevertheless provided an interesting smorgasbord at which we can all nibble. Hal, I bow to superior knowledge and am prepared to stand corrected.

Now, let's get back to basics. The Guardian newspaper carried a humorous article about this the other day which said that if God could be bothered to explain the workings of the universe to Stephen Hawking he would be one of the few people on the planet who might have a chance of understanding what God was saying. This article made a serious point - what do scientists actually know about the universe?

According to scientists the universe is made up of about 4% ordinary matter (ie those lovely stars twinkling in the night sky); 23% dark matter, ie matter that is inferred to exist from gravitational effects on visible matter and background radiation, but is undetectable by emitted or scattered electromagnetic radiation and 73% of dark energy - a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and is the most popular way to explain recent observations and experiments that the universe appears to be expanding at an accelerating rate.

The stars I can see. But it seems scientists are struggling to get to grips with what dark matter is (the so-called scaffolding of the universe) and they seem to have no idea what dark energy is but somehow it's supposed to keep pushing the galaxies apart and the universe will expand for ever.

Against this background of uncertainty (and let's face it quasi-scientific belief and faith), Prof Hawking now announces that the universe can be created from nothing because there are billions of other universes in the multiverse and gravity allows for it (okay I do him a disservice).

Yes Huguenot, at the micro level of the sub-atomic, particles do whizz in and out of existence, but it is absurd to say "In modern physics, there is no such thing as "nothing." Even in a perfect vacuum, pairs of virtual particles are constantly being created and destroyed. The existence of these particles is no mathematical fiction..."

It is absurd because while this is happening at the quantum level, at the macro level galaxies are forming and merging and having the life sucked out of them by black holes, supernovas are exploding and so on. Where is the nothingness? Can quantum mechanics exist in nothing?

In short, Prof Hawking has bitten off more than he can chew. He should have stayed at Cambridge. He's gone funny since he went to Canada.

[Huguenot]

I think it's a weee bit rich to say that 'Prof Hawking has bitten off more than he can chew' and then announce that your alternative solution is that there's a bloke in a towel who writes things in Hebrew on stones at the top of mountains to itinerant jews....

[Huguenot]

The overall tone of your post is a bit weird....

"what do scientists actually know about the universe?"... "down to belief, gut instinct and upbringing. AND THIS IS TRUE FOR SCIENTISTS"

Those bloody scientists eh? Pesky buggers? What do they actually know? Compared with your commonsense and gut belief? If only only, they could sit down and listen to you and your commonsense, they'd all bit a bit better off eh? Global warming caused by the chinese, and plastic bags are created by people in housing estates? It's all so obvious, right? It's commonsense.

As for your conviction that it's 'absurd' to discuss the concept of nothing, I appreciate that you probably just haven't thought it through.

[Tarot]

Just live your life. worrying about God and the afterlife. is the sign of depression, and trying to break away from childhood brainwashing. chill

[silverfox]

Oh Tarot, you are a card!

[Tarot]

proffessor Hawkins went funny, after he got married and beaten up by his wife.

[Tarot]

Pick a card Silverfox!

[silverfox]

Sorry Tarot, against my religion

[Narnia]

BBC 4 programme on I player

It's interesting.

[Ridgley]

There is definitely a GOD and boy we need him under this government you wait untill the VAT and the cuts really hit and all the heirs of Thatcher/ limp dems will say blame the Labour Party:)

[Huguenot]

Will this god save us then? Deep pockets indeed.

[Ridgley]

Have faith you never know:)

[Huguenot]

Well, from what I understand he works in mysterious ways. It's entirely possible that a blighter of his ilk deliberately created a housing bubble in order to persuade us that we should have faith in his rescue.

He's like one of these chaps who simultaneously pushes you off the platform and grabs you back, announcing 'tell your mum I saved your life' ;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

We could always check his track record in previous recessions

Aah

[Narnia]

Aah..........surely you mean Aum?

[Ridgley]

Great Guys:)

[Tarot]

Sounds like most of you people have no invisable means of support.Ha Ha!

[Tarot]

How many pagans, and Jedi Knights on this forum.I wonder.I know there are quite a few Wicca practicing in the area.

[SeanMacGabhann]

A few glasses of fruit juice too many last night tarot?

[Earl Aelfheah]

There is no way to be sure of anything, except of ones own subjective (filtered perception of) experience. Life is no more than this, or at least we can't be sure that it is. Therefore, if you want to find meaning in life, live by a set of personal values.

[Narnia]

What does that mean?

[JohnL]

> In short, Prof Hawking has bitten off more than he

> can chew. He should have stayed at Cambridge. He's

> gone funny since he went to Canada.

No - the latest theories seem to say we have another level of universes

I think they call them BRANES as in Membranes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

Its all theory anyway - until there is some way to prove.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Narnia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> What does that mean?

LIfe is subjective experience. Therefore the only type of meaning that matters / is in our control, relates to how we frame that experience, through our values and actions.