Cameron and Europe

[????]

I think it requires more thought than I've got now but glad you started this, I was thinking of something similarly. I think the fact that no-ones really pushed for it shows rthe depth of suspicion throughout politics in the UK (and I include Labour - GB has sceptic tendancies I believe) and shows what an uphill struggle it will be. God I'm sounding like a stuck record now but I think that the enthusiasm held for europe by a "small, mettropolitam based set of people including many in the media doesn#t" reflect the will overall including many in politics. I meanm that genuinely rtaher than as a value anti-Guradian type rant I just think it shows what a struggle it will be.

[silverfox]

I've got something to do so will address your questions more fully later Sean.

Briefly, I think it's the control and uniformity that bugs me. Our politicians deserve a kicking - it's healthy for democracy. But when I read about Europe telling us how many hours we should/shouldn't work, the lack of will to address the mess of the common agricultural policy because the likes of France are still agrarian economies but it'll still cost you ?xx million I think bugger off, who are you to tell us what to do?

[silverfox]

I've got something to do so will address your questions more fully later Sean.

Briefly, I think it's the control and uniformity that bugs me. Our politicians deserve a kicking - it's healthy for democracy. But when I read about Europe telling us how many hours we should/shouldn't work, the lack of will to address the mess of the common agricultural policy because the likes of France are still agrarian economies but it'll still cost you ?xx million I think bugger off, who are you to tell us what to do?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ireland is an island. I would also say it has sceptical tendancies. And rebellious. Sure, didn't you nearly beat us in that 800 year thingumajiggy

But it's also a fairly respectful and honest partner in things EU. And whilst it's true it needed the money and the help.. well that could well be the UK soon

And if your suspicion that it's a small metropolitan group of enthusiasts is true, it must be true only in this country. And the media is largely hostile to the EU as well in this country so again the question is ... well it's not a question any more it's more of a scream of frustration

The constant anti-EU feeling seems to boil down to "If you make us work fewer hours Brussels, we'll get so upset we'll vote UKIP and BNP!"

It just seems nuts

silverfox points out (quite rightly) that the EU ain't perfect but what is? And it still seems preferable to work together than to have this odd, seperatist mentality. This country will need the EU far more than the EU needs it in a few years time. I would start the groundwork now...

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ireland is an island. I would also say it has sceptical tendancies. And rebellious. Sure, didn't you nearly beat us in that 800 year thingumajiggy

But it's also a fairly respectful and honest partner in things EU. And whilst it's true it needed the money and the help.. well that could well be the UK soon

And if your suspicion that it's a small metropolitan group of enthusiasts is true, it must be true only in this country. And the media is largely hostile to the EU as well in this country so again the question is ... well it's not a question any more it's more of a scream of frustration

The constant anti-EU feeling seems to boil down to "If you make us work fewer hours Brussels, we'll get so upset we'll vote UKIP and BNP!"

It just seems nuts

silverfox points out (quite rightly) that the EU ain't perfect but what is? And it still seems preferable to work together than to have this odd, seperatist mentality. This country will need the EU far more than the EU needs it in a few years time. I would start the groundwork now...

[SeanMacGabhann]

"Honest Partner"??? That's a rubbish phrase by the way - I retract it. But the gist of what I mean is there

[SeanMacGabhann]

"Honest Partner"??? That's a rubbish phrase by the way - I retract it. But the gist of what I mean is there

[Brendan]

If the United Kingdom (This great union of non-homogenous, feudal states) decided to take the stance to not participate in the European Union at all I would respect that and also find it admirable. Stupid on some levels maybe but still admirable.

But if we are going to participate to the mutual benefit of ourselves and the countries we share this continent with we should do so in good faith and use our elected officials influence the European Parliament.

The belligerent stance based solely on un-thought out notions of nationalism is not only rude and un-neighbourly but unedifying and arrogant from a country that compared to a lot of the other members states, has very little to be arrogant about.

[Brendan]

If the United Kingdom (This great union of non-homogenous, feudal states) decided to take the stance to not participate in the European Union at all I would respect that and also find it admirable. Stupid on some levels maybe but still admirable.

But if we are going to participate to the mutual benefit of ourselves and the countries we share this continent with we should do so in good faith and use our elected officials influence the European Parliament.

The belligerent stance based solely on un-thought out notions of nationalism is not only rude and un-neighbourly but unedifying and arrogant from a country that compared to a lot of the other members states, has very little to be arrogant about.

[mockney piers]

A huuuge topic and I will gather thoughts for a soloquy that will only interest me, but in the meantime...

The rest of Europe does have issues, they offer differ in texture but don't think somehow were the only sceptical nation by any stretch. Extremism is on the rise in the margins everywhere and it's a wider malaise with political engagement, I don't think Europe is central to it at all.

Yes I think by and large the european project is something imposed by political elites on the masses, but fuck me, what isn't.

Like Brendan I respect britons' right to choose and if you leave so do I, I'm happier as a citizen of Europe than I am blighty regardless of how much I love this place.

Oh yeah, and homogenous america, ho ho ho.

[mockney piers]

A huuuge topic and I will gather thoughts for a soloquy that will only interest me, but in the meantime...

The rest of Europe does have issues, they offer differ in texture but don't think somehow were the only sceptical nation by any stretch. Extremism is on the rise in the margins everywhere and it's a wider malaise with political engagement, I don't think Europe is central to it at all.

Yes I think by and large the european project is something imposed by political elites on the masses, but fuck me, what isn't.

Like Brendan I respect britons' right to choose and if you leave so do I, I'm happier as a citizen of Europe than I am blighty regardless of how much I love this place.

Oh yeah, and homogenous america, ho ho ho.

[????]

Sean I don't disagree with your sentiment I just don't share your optimism.

[????]

Sean I don't disagree with your sentiment I just don't share your optimism.

[silverfox]

Ok, back to Sean's points.

The EU,a single market, 500 million citzens, 27 member states with nine more queuing up to join. It is etimated to generate 30% of the gross world product.

In effect, the EU offers its members a new model of economic and political collaboration that transcends the old alliances of cooperation between individual countries or blocks. The members willingly delegate their sovereignty in exchange for representation in the institutions. In return they benefit from a standardised system of laws which ensure the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital across borders and share common policies on trade, agriculture, fisheries and regional development. It has a limited role in foreign policy, enacts legislation in justice and home affairs and oversees environmental and climate change matters.

It is a monster that is bigger than its individual parts and has been called a "postmodern superpower", ie it focuses on supranational law and economic and political rivalries rather than the old order of military and ideological rivalries between countries.

Perhaps we should thank our lucky stars we are part of this new order, with all the benefits of trade it provides in the age of the global economy with China and the BRIC nations fast establishing a new economic order.

However, I'm still not sure about it. Is the EU really a postmodern superpower or a large bureaucratic allusion that is simply papering over the cracks of old european rivalries with countries simply signing up to the club for what they can get out of it. Part of an answer may emerge from the global downturn which will show whether the structures are sound enough to hold the member states together.

Enlargement

The EU has not yet finished growing. More states are understandably queuing up to join to increase their standards of living, get Euro grants for huge infrastructure projects to transform their underdeveloped economies by building roads in Croatia and Turkey, putting tractors in fields presently tilled by peasants and agricultural subsidies galore. All this has to be paid for by the member states' contributions. The portions of the euro cake will be cut thinner and thinner and it will be generations before a return is made from the newer members.

What are the benefits for Britain?

While it is easy to see how Ireland has benefitted from membership with the country transformed over the past 20 years it's not as obvious to me how Britain has benefitted. Can any economists, financiers or business gurus on the forum provide a ball-park figure that says Britain has benefitted to the tune of ?xx trillion by joining, or would be ?xx worse off if it hadn't joined or even that we haven't benefitted yet but will do in the future.

Should we have delegated our sovereignty?

A country that can't make its own policies and own laws, or can but only if another body tells you it doesn't conflict with their policies and laws is little more than a eunuch on the world stage. Should this classical precept of political theory have been so readily given away for the EU shilling?

Effectiveness

Is the EU an effective body? The US is an homogenous body. Federalism works there despite differences between the states. It works in the sense that when the US makes trade, foreign policy, political and military decisions it does this on behalf of the US as a whole. The EU is a more disparate body with Germany and France dominant forces, a raft of ex-communist states and long-standing cultural and political rivalries. Block voting is used on major decisions where the consent of all 27 states isn't required or would be impractical. The bigger a country you are the more votes you get. The aim may be noble but does it really work in practice?

[silverfox]

Ok, back to Sean's points.

The EU,a single market, 500 million citzens, 27 member states with nine more queuing up to join. It is etimated to generate 30% of the gross world product.

In effect, the EU offers its members a new model of economic and political collaboration that transcends the old alliances of cooperation between individual countries or blocks. The members willingly delegate their sovereignty in exchange for representation in the institutions. In return they benefit from a standardised system of laws which ensure the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital across borders and share common policies on trade, agriculture, fisheries and regional development. It has a limited role in foreign policy, enacts legislation in justice and home affairs and oversees environmental and climate change matters.

It is a monster that is bigger than its individual parts and has been called a "postmodern superpower", ie it focuses on supranational law and economic and political rivalries rather than the old order of military and ideological rivalries between countries.

Perhaps we should thank our lucky stars we are part of this new order, with all the benefits of trade it provides in the age of the global economy with China and the BRIC nations fast establishing a new economic order.

However, I'm still not sure about it. Is the EU really a postmodern superpower or a large bureaucratic allusion that is simply papering over the cracks of old european rivalries with countries simply signing up to the club for what they can get out of it. Part of an answer may emerge from the global downturn which will show whether the structures are sound enough to hold the member states together.

Enlargement

The EU has not yet finished growing. More states are understandably queuing up to join to increase their standards of living, get Euro grants for huge infrastructure projects to transform their underdeveloped economies by building roads in Croatia and Turkey, putting tractors in fields presently tilled by peasants and agricultural subsidies galore. All this has to be paid for by the member states' contributions. The portions of the euro cake will be cut thinner and thinner and it will be generations before a return is made from the newer members.

What are the benefits for Britain?

While it is easy to see how Ireland has benefitted from membership with the country transformed over the past 20 years it's not as obvious to me how Britain has benefitted. Can any economists, financiers or business gurus on the forum provide a ball-park figure that says Britain has benefitted to the tune of ?xx trillion by joining, or would be ?xx worse off if it hadn't joined or even that we haven't benefitted yet but will do in the future.

Should we have delegated our sovereignty?

A country that can't make its own policies and own laws, or can but only if another body tells you it doesn't conflict with their policies and laws is little more than a eunuch on the world stage. Should this classical precept of political theory have been so readily given away for the EU shilling?

Effectiveness

Is the EU an effective body? The US is an homogenous body. Federalism works there despite differences between the states. It works in the sense that when the US makes trade, foreign policy, political and military decisions it does this on behalf of the US as a whole. The EU is a more disparate body with Germany and France dominant forces, a raft of ex-communist states and long-standing cultural and political rivalries. Block voting is used on major decisions where the consent of all 27 states isn't required or would be impractical. The bigger a country you are the more votes you get. The aim may be noble but does it really work in practice?

[silverfox]

When it comes to Europe, David Cameron is howling in the night

The other 26 EU countries are not about to exhume the corpse of national sovereignty, says Simon Heffer.

Interesting article in the Telegraph online about Cameron's Euro-cock-up.

I didn't realise that the Lisbon Treaty sets out a procedure for member states to withdraw from the union for the first time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/6539877/When-it-comes-to-Europe-David-Cameron-is-howling-in-the-night.html

[Keef]

Where is Marmora Man?!?!?

[Huguenot]

"It is curious that David Miliband should find it preferable to be the leader of the opposition of a glorified county council than to be the leading proconsul of an imperial power: he seems not to have accurately appraised the full reach of the superstate created by the Treaty of Lisbon."

I think that's where the Tories have got it wrong - the UK is no longer an imperial power, and no longer has sufficient gravitas to consider its foreign secreataries to be Roman proconsuls on a world stage that they control.

It's just a dangerous delusion for which, as with all such hubris, there'll be an extremely unpleasant reckoning.

An influential role in a European superstate offers exactly the amount of influence required to defend Britain's interests.

[????]

A journalist I don't like in a paper I don't like saying a few things I do

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/12/gordon-brown-eu-president

[silverfox]

At midnight last night, the United Kingdom ceased to be a sovereign state

The UK became instead a subordinate unit within a European state. This has happened without popular consent, and in the absence of the referendum that all three parties had promised.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100018459/at-midnight-last-night-the-united-kingdom-ceased-to-be-a-sovereign-state/

[SeanMacGabhann]

thus wrote Al Swearagen in Dakota 1888

I'm all for it

[silverfox]

I realise you're a fan Sean and there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to agree this momentous occasion has gone down with a whimper.

Where were the bells pealing, the fireworks illuminating the sky from the London Eye, the street parties across the length and breath of the Kingdom as we welcomed our new president along with the other 500 million citzens of the EU who weren't given the chance vote for him?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I know we differ, and that's fine too but is it REALLY a momentous occassion. The very idea of sovereignty was practically abandoned decades ago . When was the last time the country took a sovereign decision?

[Milo]

In foreign policy? Suez.

[????]

Domestically often - not to join the Euro was one for instance. Incidentally I give the euro just over 50/50 of existing in its current makeup by the end of this year