Box junction appeals/challenges

[wonderwoman]

Hi we got a PCN from TFL as our car slipped into the box junction, pictures show us going in and waiting with tail half in the box. We challenged this as there are two box junctions positioned close together between sets of traffic lights outside the Peckham bus garage, but moreover the fact that they are there not to help filter traffic but actually causes problems and for accummulating revenue for the TFL, e.g there is no real right hand turn, the traffic lights are between each box change so increases chance of being caught in them, therefore they are not appropriately placed. We have a hearing tomorrow but wondering if anyone else has had experience of successfully appealing or being fined for going into the boxes. There seems to be ample room for the buses to enter the garage and I do not know why they don't just have a keep clear sign in place or just wait a few minutes like other vehicles, why do buses have special priority? Failing that I was going to challenge them on the amount ?130 which is disproportionate to the offence?

[Lowlander]

The only way to get out if it is if someone cuts in front of you illegally (and that should be shown on the camera).

Otherwise the rule is simple - if there's not enough space for you on the other side then don't go into it (unless turning right).

[Loz]

You won't win by saying it's unfair and money making or the fine is too big. You might win if you appeal based on law.

Box junction law is complex. There are a couple of websites out there that cover most of the bases -

http://www.appealnow.com/parking-tickets/yellow-box-junctions/

http://yellowboxjunction.co.uk

https://moneyboxjunction.wordpress.com/

They will give you a good idea on how you might appeal. It's mostly around the fact that the offence occurs when you enter the box, so at that point do you have any clear exit to the box.

A user here called fredricketts I think successfully appealed on a yellow box ticket here. He's not been active here for a couple of years, but sending him an email might work. http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,135592,708635#msg-708635

In the case of the bus station yellow box, I suspect (but I don't think this has ever been proven) that it is an illegal box junction. A box junction has the be at the junction of two roads - this is at the junction of a road and a bus garage. It would all depend on whether that entrance to the bus station is legally a road.

[Lowlander]

It's a bus station, not a garage; so it is a road (restricted to buses, so don't go driving there either or they'll fine you!)

[Salsaboy]

The way I understand box junctions, if you enter it with the expectation that the traffic ahead of you will move and thus make space for you, you can appeal it. As Loz says above, the offence occurs when you enter the marked area, not once you are in it.

[Lowlander]

Salsaboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The way I understand box junctions, if you enter

> it with the expectation that the traffic ahead of

> you will move and thus make space for you, you can

> appeal it. As Loz says above, the offence occurs

> when you enter the marked area, not once you are

> in it.

That's wrong. You're not allowed to stop in a yellow box (unless turning right). The only way to do that is if you can see enough space on the other side.

The whole point of a yellow box is to keep a clear area, which is also why you find them outside fire station and ambulance depots.

[Loz]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a bus station, not a garage; so it is a road

> (restricted to buses, so don't go driving there

> either or they'll fine you!)

The Road Traffic Act 1988 defines a ?road? as "in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes".

I reckon it worth a try as a part of an argument.

[Loz]

Salsaboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The way I understand box junctions, if you enter it with the expectation that the traffic ahead of

> you will move and thus make space for you, you can appeal it. As Loz says above, the offence occurs

> when you enter the marked area, not once you are in it.

Not quite. If there is a space to exit when you enter, you have a good chance of appeal. So, if someone cuts you up, then you have a good excuse. But if you enter hoping the exit will clear, you won't have much success in appealing.

Bizarrely, on two lane roads, if the other lane is clear and you stop, people have successfully appealed as they were considered to have chosen to stop, rather than were forced to stop (as per the letter of the law)!

[Lowlander]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It's a bus station, not a garage; so it is a

> road

> > (restricted to buses, so don't go driving there

> > either or they'll fine you!)

>

> The Road Traffic Act 1988 defines a ?road? as "in

> relation to England and Wales, means any highway

> and any other road to which the public has access,

> and includes bridges over which a road passes".

>

> I reckon it worth a try as a part of an argument.

I see your point. But would you employ the same argument if it were a fire station / ambulance station?

[wonderwoman]

I dont think we can rely on arguing against the fact we did enter and stop in the box although momentarily and partially. Hoping more to argue on the position, purpose therefore validity or legality of the box junctions. Tfl argue that they sought consultation through proper channels. Meaningless to me as its proof of functionality thats important, confusion to public, inadequate traffic management and only serving purpose of lining their purses increaing their revenue is worth challenging. Have checked some of the sites suggested by Loz and tips like what constitutes a road is useful to know. Thanks. The point of whether it would be same argument for an ambulance or firestation is irrelevant as its not, its outside a bus station/garage operated by TFL.

[nashoi]

12.9 Yellow box markings may be used outsidepolice, fire, ambulance stations or hospitals only where there is an access road forming a junction with the main road. Where vehicles exit directly onto the carriageway, a KEEP CLEAR marking to diagram1026 or a KEEP CLEAR marking to diagram1027.1 (varied to omit the word ?SCHOOL?) shouldbe usedd.

[Loz]

TFL will almost certainly dismiss your appeal, especially if it involves them admitting a box junction is incorrectly placed. After they have, you can take it on to the London Tribunal which is independent, so will be more open to such arguments.

[wonderwoman]

Good point nashoi and worth noting.TFL objected to our challenge sending a CD of recording our vehicle along with a catalogue of papers defending their position aggressively advising us to pay the now increased charge of ?130. We have tribunal hearing tomorrow for our case to be heard. Therefore useful to arm ourselves with information for our defence.

[wonderwoman]

Attended hearing today and lost. Made our representation with info gathered. His response was basically a contravention has occurred heres the fine to pay. Regarding the box junction rules he said verbatim the authorities can do what they like and put box junction where they like, that cant be used as a defence. I suggest that the location of them results in problems fines profitting TFL which therefore should be removed maybe local MP would like to take up the cause. Disappointed to say the least lost faith in system completely bolstering fat cats.

[Loz]

Which organisation was your hearing with?

[Jeremy]

I kinda have some sympathy as I've been caught out in the same place. It doesn't help that the flow of traffic through there is so volatile, and people seem to drive quite aggressively.

Nevertheless, sounds like you were at fault and to be honest I'm not surprised your appeal was rejected. "Bolstering fat cats?" Who are the fat cats? ?130 might sound like a lot, but doesn't go very far when you think about the whole process of enforcement, issuing fines, appeal, hearing, etc.

[Lowlander]

Is ?65 if you pay within 14 days.

I presume you only get caught once in a lifetime, since it's easy to avoid when you realise the consequence.

[wonderwoman]

The hearing was at London Tribunals. Fat cats i refer to TFL. If they didnt have box junctions in such places to catch people there would be less PCNs and subsequent hearings. Accepted we were caught in the box no doubt about that but the man (judge?)supporting authorities stating they can do what they like and put box junction where they like i didnt accept and i queried thd legality of this. He declined to comment on this.

[JohnL]

Here's a freedom of Information request made by a person remarked on above back in 2010

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yellow_box_junction_size

I noted

"A total of 3,048 PCNs were issued in the Peckham/High St/Peckham Bus

station for contraventions between 5 January 2010 until 21 August 2010."

[Lowlander]

We all make mistakes, but that figure suggests that many more people are wilfully ignoring traffic regulations. Or have forgotten their driving lessons.

[Loz]

You can still appeal the adjudicators decision if, as it seems in this case according to what you say, "the interests of justice require a review" as he/she has ignored the requirements under the Road Traffic Act.

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/your-hearing/making-application-review-adjudicators-decision