French discussion on female headgear

[mockney piers]

Exactly. And I'm much happier with the latter because subsequent generations do tend to become much more like their peers at school. Societies have a way of normalising over time.

It's when you target legislation at them in order to enforce behaviour that they are more likely to feel alienated and adopt stricter interpretations/dress/politico-religious views than their parents in order to be different, to say 'fuck you' to the authorities and we are seeing more of this happening in this country and I can't say as I blame them, Islam is the new communism; the bogey man, the other.

Legislating behaviour in this fashion actually will have the opposite effect, and thu s it will be in France, traditional Muslims are not going to feel more French as a result.

If the real intention is that any behaviour other than an ill defined and perceived nationalist norm is unwelcome then surely just go down an enforced repatriation route for anyone who wants to continue with foreign traditions, garb, behaviour.

Plus I REALLY don't buy the security line. If any sort of face covering is bad then at least we're all beginning to sing from the same hymn sheet regards clowns!!

I really don't read the guardian, I just don't think the bogeyman lies under every veil. Live and let live makes for a better country if you ask me.

[Magpie]

But actually the opposite has happened though. 30 years of failing to encourage integration has led to the UK and London being centres for extremist activity. Many second generation muslims are far stricter than their parents in terms of dress and behaviour. The increase in extremism isn't a reaction to tougher government post-2001, it happened well before that, and was ignored, in the hope, that you share, that magically they will all turn into liberal tolerant secular westerners. Well they haven't, and we reap the whirlwind of that failure.

[Brendan]

I think that has far more to do with them feeling disenfranchised because of the massive levels of social inequality in the uk.

People only tend to turn to extreme politics when their personal/financial circumstances are dire.

[david_carnell]

I do worry about enclaves of any ethnic groupings be they Jew, Muslim, Skih, Hindu or great clumps of white-flight suburbia.

I believe passionatly in a multi-ethnic Britain but multi-cultural Britain is a very different beast - one that even Trevor Phillips has highlighted difficulties over.

Whilst forcing an outside culture to integrate into a non-defined "British" culture is a non-event, the problems caused by isolation and segregation can be just as bad.

There has to be a half-way house that allows for religious and cultural freedoms whilst encouraging integration into the liberal and democratic ideals of a modern western society. Finding that point is a very difficult and delicate balancing act.

[mockney piers]

Exactly. It's to do with social inequality, this anger can be preyed upon to foster extremism. It's still a tiny problem in he uk and I really font think it's from a failure to enforce cultural homogeneity on imigrants.

In fact far more relevant is our foreign policy perceived as being anti Islamic.

It's not, it's merely murderously and repaciously neo-colonial.

But try splittin hairs with someone who's country had been invaded or whose family are being bombed by their government at our government's behest.

What then we need to do is engage in open dialogue, but here again labour score own goals by banning parties and effectively persecute the Muslim community. Even if they are not persecuting it was labour who always said 'it's not about doing it's about being see to do' (I paraphrase). They never learnt their own lesson.

[mockney piers]

I think the key word is encourage David. A healthy liberal country should entice and seduce, not legislate and enforce. Thems the tactics of a people lacking in self confidence and identity, recoursing to fear.

If British is a strong identity then this shouldn be the case.

Ironically I'm beginning to think calls for following France actually stem from insecurity.

Mind you I'm an immigrant and my wife thinks I'm the most English person she's ever met and I love the place, so clearly this country's ability to seduce and entice is stronger than you may think.

[silverfox]

Looks like Italy's going to follow suit

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23800701-italy-to-follow-france-with-muslim-full-face-veil-ban.do

[Huguenot]

Hmmm.. Like bollix. (Not at you SF)

Willing subordination is indoctrination. We're all born equal. Deference is subordination.

There should be little tolerance that engages the willing indoctrination of women into a subordinate role.

Softly, softly, was not a strategy that worked in the past in resolving these issues and it's not about to start now. The suffragette movement was born through economic demand and contextual requirement.

I've spent 5 years in the countries that are still struggling with these issues, I have absolute confidence in our approach.

Legislate. Enforce. Demand respect for secular values.

Errmmmm... YAY!

But quietly, I really mean it.

[silverfox]

Sorry Huguenot, I'm reading this at a late hour. What are you talking about?

[Brendan]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe passionatly in a multi-ethnic Britain

> but multi-cultural Britain is a very different

> beast - one that even Trevor Phillips has

> highlighted difficulties over.

You really shouldn't go "believing" in things David, especially not passionately. Down that route madness lies.

[SteveT]

I think the head-dress worn by muslims whilst driving, should be made illegal, they cannot see anything going on around them, and I have swerved out of their way on three seperate occasions to avoid being collided with, in the last two weeks, because they hadn't seen me!

Absolutely lethal, as the wearers are completely oblivious to not having any peripheral vision and all it's limitations.

Change the law please, before there are more deaths on the roads.