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messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 13, 11:16AM

Sacking the Secretary of State who got Stormont back up and running does seem unfair. Unsurprisingly suspected to be revenge for not believing in Brexit enough:

[twitter.com]
"I hear Julian Smith sacking is linked to his comments at the height of the Brexit tension last autumn.
He told MPs no deal would be “very, very bad” for NI"

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Blah Blah February 13, 11:42AM

Is Boris planning to stuff his cabinet with those that would support a no deal scenario if it comes to that?

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Blah Blah February 13, 11:53AM

Geez, Savid Javid resigns after being told he had to get rid of all of his advisors if he wanted to keep his job!

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by diable rouge February 13, 11:58AM

Wow, that's propa breaking news, reshuffle blown out of the water...

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by TheCat February 13, 03:21PM

I posted this in another thread...but this seems to be where it's being discussed....

For context - I didn't vote conservative recently, despite my leaver credentials on this forum. For me the question of government or leave are totally separate.

But, in anycase, after the election I was prepared to give Boris the benefit of the doubt, despite his patchy record with the truth etc. But I must say this forcing out of javid does concern me.

They wanted him to change his advisors, so really they wanted to keep him as a figurehead to show stability, but number 10 would actually make the decisions in the chancellory...

Hmmmm.......

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by diable rouge February 13, 03:50PM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me the question of government or leave are totally
> separate.

Can you expand on this please...

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth February 13, 03:54PM

"Can you expand on this please..."

I know many people on the left and on the right (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither side can see the problem with leaving and The Other Lot getting in)

So I don't think Cat is unique or needs to expand much - to me it just reads that people all had their own reasons for leaving

It's why so many insist "I know what I voted for" - but rarely acknowledge that might be for very different reasons to other leave voters (I think Cat has said they do acknowledge this in the past tbf)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 13, 03:57pm by Sephiroth.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by TheCat February 13, 04:35PM

Ha...as soon as I posted that I thought that bit might be the focus....

Sephiroths comments are very fair.

For what it's worth....the short comment to make is that the referendum vote was for the next 50 odd years, and if you were influenced by people like garage, Johnson, rees-mogg etc....then I feel this is conflating the politicians of the moment with a much more structural, longer term decision.

I appreciate the counter argument is that these are the people that will negotiate our exit. And to be fair...that is unfortunate.....

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by TheCat February 13, 04:46PM

As an aside, I thi nk the juxtaposition highlighted in sephiroths post is worth flagging. It highlights the difference in outlook between many leavers and remainers. The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included), but the shorter term implementation risks and detail were more important to many remainers

And it's this incongruous way of looking at it that maybe promotes so much division....apples and oranges.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 13, 04:47pm by TheCat.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 13, 04:54PM

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know many people on the left and on the right
> (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither
> side can see the problem with leaving and The
> Other Lot getting in)

I think it's more that they can put up with the "wrong" party for 5 years if it means they get the Brexit they want, but it's definitely true Leave/Remain isn't drawn along the usual party lines.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth February 13, 05:05PM

"The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included)"

but again the longer term concept is irreconcilably different amongst many leavers - never mind Remainers. Therefore it will forever be a mirage and never a remote possibility. That's the problem that most remainers see - apples and oranges are different fruit and people will have their own preference. But leave vs remain is Unicorn vs Dog(or cat, according to preference)

It's profoundly irresponsible

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 13, 05:14PM

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but again the longer term concept is
> irreconcilably different amongst many leavers -
> never mind Remainers. Therefore it will forever be
> a mirage and never a remote possibility.

You won't find any disagreement from me on that front.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by diable rouge February 13, 06:48PM

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Can you expand on this please..."
>
> I know many people on the left and on the right
> (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither
> side can see the problem with leaving and The
> Other Lot getting in)

But surely that only applies to Labour leave voters. Tory leave voters could vote for their natural side.

I just thought it was interesting that Cat as a leaver didn't vote Tory, the only party on the Leave side that could realistically win and deliver Brexit. It seems to go against the grain of how most people voted, i.e. ignoring political allegiances and voting along the lines of leave or remain instead. I was interested in hearing the backstory to his position...

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth February 13, 07:00PM

"But surely that only applies to Labour leave voters. Tory leave voters could vote for their natural side."

well yes, in this election

But that makes non-tory leave voters worse - because clearly brexit NOW will be shaped by (waves hand at whatever this government is) as they were always going to be elected in this election. But just as Corbyn fans (not saying Cat is one) imagined He would win ( I know, I know), they imagined their own version of brexit

But even then - tory leave voters have to accept there will come a time when they won't have power - and then (waves hand at whatever the opposition is now) will be doing a lot of things they won't like

Basically all leavers on all sides could only see the (mostly imaginary) benefits as applicable to them, and dismissed any Actually Very Serious downsides

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by diable rouge February 13, 07:17PM

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But that makes non-tory leave voters worse -
> because clearly brexit NOW will be shaped by
> (waves hand at whatever this government is) as
> they were always going to be elected in this
> election. But just as Corbyn fans (not saying Cat
> is one) imagined He would win ( I know, I know),
> they imagined their own version of brexit

Absolutely, I've previously asked the question of Lexiters on here are they comfortable knowing that Brexit is fast becoming what a lot of remainers said it would, namely a conduit for the Tory hard right, increasingly creeping towards a quasi-authoritarian government, and replies back came there none...

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 14, 09:24AM

Sajid Javid leaving should give dissident Tories someone to coalesce around - aren't many compared to the May years but it's a start.

Don't think Sajid won't hold a grudge here - he will as the Metro says he's been thrown under a bus (pun intended I think).

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 14, 01:06PM

EU spending tens of millions of euros a year to promote meat eating

[www.theguardian.com]

Well done EU. Glad to see you’re spending MY money on something I agree with.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 14, 05:28PM

GlobalMeatNews.com (I bet no-one had heard of them) suggest we all do it

[www.globalmeatnews.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 14, 05:28pm by JohnL.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Alan Medic Today, 01:35PM

The new SOS for NI says there will be no border down the Irish sea. This border I understood was an implication of the signed WA. Is the UK Gov planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the island?

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth Today, 01:57PM

"Is the UK Gov planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the island?"

yes

Is this despicable and irresponsible?

Yes

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